Author Topic: Bobwhite Quail  (Read 2421 times)

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Offline Justin10mm

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Bobwhite Quail
« on: May 28, 2010, 05:22:46 PM »
Has anyone herd if TPWD is reintroducing bobwhite quail in certain areas of central Texas?

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 08:46:10 AM »

Haven't heard anything about that but would welcome a program here in West Texas.

About 30-35 years ago my place was overrun with quail, they started disappearing about 15 years ago and today there is none.  I can say, without question, the disappearance of the quail took place about the same time the feral hogs showed up.  In addition, there has been a decrease in the number of turkey we see too.

I think any program would be great, but first the wild hog is will have to be eliminated/reduced if they expect the quail to reproduce.  A nest of eggs just doesn’t stand a chance with the hogs around.  We even tried building breeding spots along fence rows, reinforced with cattle panels to keep the hogs out……….they always find a way to get in to the nest.. >:( >:( >:(

Offline markc

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 04:10:16 PM »
I haven't read anything about a reintroduction of quail either.  I do believe that if a program involving any ground nesting birds is to be a success, certain animals must be reduced in numbers.  I would put feral hogs at the top of the list, as rockbilly suggested, along with any feral cats, raccoons, possums, skunks, and anything else that has increased in numbers as trapping has decreased and predator hunting has increased.  I did recently hear in a training program for wildlife management, and wildlife tax valuation programs put on by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept (Feb, 2010) that those animals MUST be reduced in number in any kind of wildlife management program.  They attributed the inability turkey to gain a foot hold directly at those species I listed, and blamed the problem on a reduction in trapping, and an increase in the popularity of predator hunting. What they said was the reduction of predators, coyotes, bobcats in particular is good for deer herds, but has created an increase (along with a reduction in trapping) in raccoons and possums, etc.  These critters are known raiders of bird nests.  I personally have instituted a zero tolerance on those critters for a while on my property. 
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Offline HL

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2010, 03:17:14 AM »
I read an article a few months back, where TPWD did a study to see why quail populations were down. One thing they found was that the corn kept in feeders for deer, develope a toxin that is deadly to the quail. The quail eat the corn and it takes about 2-3 weeks for the toxin to kill them. The study they did was conducted on a large tract of land, with a known population of 20 coveys. They began feeding out corn in early September, and by the middle of October, 19 coveys had died. They believe that extended storage of corn in the large feeders, set up by deer hunters has caused the biggest decline in quail population.

We used to have more quail than you could count when I was young, and at that time we did not have any deer. It wasnt' until the deer population grew and all the feeders were put up, that in one year, we all the sudden did not have any quail. I have heard one quail in that part of San Saba County over the past 25 years, and that was about 5 years ago.

Offline Dee

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 03:39:34 AM »
HL, I was sitting in Sunday School this very last Sunday, and a couple of farmers were talking about the crop dusters this last week spreading sterilize barley grain in the corn to help prevent toxins in the corn. Today's corn is ALL HY BRID, and very susceptible to toxin developments in the grain. It is tested before fed to cows for the same reason, and if the corn has certain toxins which the barley is supposed to TRY AND HELP PREVENT, it will cause sickness in the cows.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline His lordship.

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 08:16:22 AM »
So Possums are destructive in Texas?  I know they are a major pest in other parts of the country as well as Raccoons, I held my fire on several possums last winter as I was not sure on the status of them.

Offline Dee

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
Possums will eat anything, and nesting bird eggs is on the list.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline streak

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2010, 12:19:15 PM »
Use to do a lot of bird hunting in N.W. Louisiana and E.Texas and what a sight to behold when you see your two pointers lockup on a stump. You get ready to shoot as you are slipping up behind the dogs and then you see in the stump a snarling possum!! :o :o
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Offline JWP58

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 08:02:48 AM »
Dont forget about fire ants.

I have a hard time believing deer corn has anything to do with lowering quail numbers. Where i hunt we have several corn feeders and i have busted numerous huge coveys just walking around. Funny how if you're just out scouting and 20 quail fly up...your heart jumps out of your chest...lol.

Offline HL

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 11:40:48 AM »
If I can locate the study done by the Texas Parks and Wildlife, I will post it. When I read it, it sounded like it was well conducted and made a lot of sense. In Central Texas, where my ranch is, we used to have more quail than you could kill, but as soon as the deer moved in and corn feeders went up, the quail disappeared. Our quail disappeared about 25 years before we had any hogs and very few predators in the area.

Offline HL

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 11:51:24 AM »
Here's part of the article. It states the possibility of the toxin and being a contributing factor. In our area, I believe it is the major factor. Anyway here's what a few had to say about predators, fire ants and the toxin:


"Dr. Nova Silvy of the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries at Texas A & M University argued that the ultimate factor affecting long-term quail numbers is habitat change at regional and national levels, with weather influencing yearly variation in local numbers. This hypothesis does not mean that predators cannot affect individual birds, coveys, or even a local population, but they are not responsible for long-term population decline at the regional or continental scale, nor do they cause large annual population fluctuations.
Dr. Brad Dabbert with the Department of Range, Wildlife, and Fisheries Management at Texas Tech University revealed that only 2 percent of bobwhite chicks in unprotected nests were killed by red imported fire ants (RIFA) in a field experiment his experiment team conducted. They found that survival rate of chicks in areas treated with insecticide was more than double that of chicks from untreated areas. They also found that chick survival rate is related to the density of RIFA as indexed by the number of RIFA captured within thirty minutes in a standardized bait cup placed in quail nests the day after hatch. When 300 or more RIFA are captured in the bait cup one day after chicks hatch, survival rate is zero. Conversely, when fewer than 300 RIFA are captured at the nest, chick survival rate is similar to that of chicks in treated areas. More research needs to be conducted on quail and RIFA interactions. Relationships of many variables such as weather, management practices, region, and quail and fire ant densities should be examined before conclusions are made.
Dr. Neal Wilkins, with the Texas Agricultural Extension Service, presented a program proposing that quail managers be concerned about aflatoxin poisoning. Simply stated, aflatoxin's effect on quail is largely unknown. In Texas, 300 million pounds of corn, the equivalent of two pounds per acre over the entire state, are fed annually to wildlife. He cited studies that demonstrated liver damage in deer after eight weeks on corn with aflatoxin levels of 800 parts per billion (ppb), mortality of mallard ducks consuming peanuts with 110 ppb, and liver damage and decreased immune capacity in turkeys consuming food with aflatoxin at 100 to 400 ppb. Aflatoxin poisoning's effect varies by species, age, concentration, and exposure rate. However, like turkeys and ducks, quail are probably more susceptible to aflatoxins than mammals such as deer. Furthermore, broken or stunted kernels of corn, which quail may be more likely to ingest, may have higher concentrations of aflatoxin.
In Texas, corn with an aflatoxin concentration higher than 20 ppb must have a warning on the label. Corn with concentrations above 100 ppb cannot be sold as deer feed. Dr. Wilkins was involved in a study that found bags of corn without a manufacturer's label were twice as likely to contain more than 100 ppb than labeled corn. There is no documentation of aflatoxin poisoning's reducing quail populations. However, a manager should feed only corn that has been tested and labeled to contain aflatoxin levels lower than 20 ppb."


Offline JWP58

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 03:43:11 AM »
Well i do know that the corn we put out is tested for the toxin stuffs. I still dont see that even if toxins were present being the main cause in lowering population numbers.

Offline streak

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 08:07:51 AM »
On our acreage in E.Texas we have quail off and on throughout the years. We tried to stock some several years ago and was pretty successful. The next year we could call them up and could hear alot more. After that my brother tried to release some Tennessee Reds and Pharoah`s. The next year you could hardly find any quail and saw alot of foxes, coyotes, and fireants. Owls and hawks also were quite evident. So if one is to restock any quail better take time to eradicate all varmints that are legal! If we find a fire ant mound we try to pour a little casinghead down the nest after we knock the top off! That usually takes care of the mound!
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Offline HL

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 08:48:28 AM »
I don't know how much truth is in it, but I have been told that even if you buy corn, toxin free, a lot of the time, the toxins will develope by sitting in a large feeder for extended periods of time.  I don't know. ???

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 09:46:07 AM »
How are the populations in areas without corn feeders? That is a large amount of territory.I think it is more about predator control.

Offline mrbigtexan

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2010, 04:34:20 PM »
I don't know how much truth is in it, but I have been told that even if you buy corn, toxin free, a lot of the time, the toxins will develope by sitting in a large feeder for extended periods of time.  I don't know. ???
i wonder how they control the toxins when corn is stored in the big concrete grain elevators?

Offline james

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
Corn toxins are not the total cause for the demise of quail.  Thirty years ago we had a farm in NW Arkansas that supported at least five large coveys but today there is only one small one.  We have never fed corn or supplemented any wildlife food.  There are more predators today such as hawks, owls, coyotes, skunks, possums and raccoons. When I lived on the farm I kept predators in check.  A lot of domestic poultry is grown in NW AR and I suspected the poultry litter put on the fields for fertilizer might have had something to do with the loss of quail.  There is also a lot of fescue grass grown in the area which has an ergot that can cause problems in other animals.  I've heard a million reasons why the quail are becoming extinct but I don't think anyone knows for sure.  I hope someone can find a remedy soon, because I liked nothing better than seeing my dogs locked up on a big covey of birds.

Offline grout-scout

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 06:01:13 PM »
My place in West Texas has many feeders and many Blue Quail. I'm not so sure about the corn thing, since we have coveys of 20-30 birds come through daily to get a little belly full of gold. I think the biggest problem is the lack of trapping of varmits. They (varmits) aren't worth the money they used to be so it's not worth the trouble & expense.

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2010, 06:55:50 PM »
The dramatic increase in hog populations didn't help either. Hogs love eggs. Drove through half of Texas today for Thanksgiving. Saw almost as many hog road kills as deer road kills. Something that could not have been said 2-3 decades ago right about the time the Bobwhite started to nose dive and commercial trapping all but ended.  But then again.... Turkeys are on the slow increase and wintering ducks don't seem to have a problem. And turkey eat at feeders just as much as quail. Maybe they have a parasite that is unknown? If predation was that big of a factor then would'nt any ground nesting bird be affected? I once had a wildlife biologist tell me that cottontails burrow dens undergroud and live in them. Do they?

Offline Dee

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2010, 01:25:21 AM »
Some will disagree, but I seem to have started watching the bobwhite disappear at about the same time the farmers quit farming with anhydrous ammonia, and started using the big boom type LIQUID applicator rigs. They come in, and spray the ground with LIQUID herbicide, then a few weeks later they hit it with LIQUID fertilizer, then a few weeks after the crops come LIQUID fertilizer again, and then during that time LIQUID insecticide. These booms go out over 40 feet either side of the vehicle, and bobwhites will freeze and let them pass over, in the mean while getting soaked with what ever the farmer is spraying for.
Now anyone that has ever hunted quail will tell you a bobwhite trained dog, ain't gonna do too much good with blue quail cause: Blues run, and Bobwhites FREEZE, thus getting soaked with these liquids. If you think it makes no difference, remember the Bald Eagle almost disappeared because of DDT. It caused the females to lay eggs that were so thin shelled, they seldom hatched.
Hogs get their share no doubt, but try and get a turkey or blue quail to sit still while a spray rig runs over them with the booms out and the spray goin. Ain't gonna happen. Their gonna run, or flush.
Then there's the fire ant theory. If the fire ants are gettin the bobwhites, why aren't they gettin the turkey, and blue quail? All this is just my opinion, and it makes a farmer madder than hell if you suggest it, but then again, he takes my tax dollar by the millions in subsidies. I guess he just wants my money, but not my opinion on the disappearing bobwhite. Huh?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline grout-scout

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 04:36:12 PM »
Dee, I think your theory makes perfect sense in the farming areas. I think sometimes certain species just can't adapt (prairie chickens, maybe quail too) with the changes of time. There used to be Bobwhites in my area but I haven't seen one in 15 years. Reckon they will make the endangered list eventually?

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2010, 07:49:20 AM »
I never bought the fire ant theory. Although I have seen a fawn killed by them .

Offline Dee

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2010, 08:58:01 AM »
The lay of the land has not changed in my area where farming is concerned in well over a hundred years. The farming METHODS have changed quite a bit. They are more or less CHEMICAL FARMING than real farming as they seldom if ever plant anything other than wheat and corn. The land is worn out from it, but the woods, and tree lines follow property lines here and they have not changed in many decades. I think if you got to ranch land where these chemicals are not used in the same manner as here, and bobwhites are native, you will still find bobwhites.
Don't tell that to a farmer though. He might get mad and stop takin your subsidy check he gets, and might quit holding onto his grain to drive the market up before he sells.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2010, 09:58:41 AM »
Dee has a good point about the chemicals and about the Bobwhite freezing. And this might explain the gradual decline in cottontails. I have noticed they are more prevalent in non-farming areas which is strange. I see more in the desert than in their more favorable habitat.

Offline Dee

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 08:16:27 AM »
Although cottontails are not the topic, I think that is exactly what the problem is, and have thought so for quite a while. We used to could go out and kill 20 or 25 cottontails on one hunt. Now you seldom see them, and most folks nowadays don't even hunt them around here.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 04:24:52 PM »
I agree, Dee. Between Carlsbad, NM and 20 miles north during a 30 mile drive I saw more cottontails than ever seen anywhere in Texas in 2 decades!!! Just on that one trip... All  high desert, Farmland NoWhere Near. 

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Bobwhite Quail
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 04:55:31 AM »
I agree with Dee and Mark on both points. There is a hybrid spieces of corn grown for the sole purpose to make popcorn. Hybred flora can't be good. And I have the same intolerance for critters at our place as Mark does. Everytime I find Coyote scat it has some kind of hair in it, probably rabbit which have been on the decline for years in central TX. And we have found bobcat scat with feathers. And don't forget snakes. My neighbor raises chickens and he started having snakes eat the eggs. He started leaving egg shaped granite stones in the nests. It worked. Snake eats the granite egg and dies. Doesn't stop the skunks though.