How many rounds, before you trust a 1911?

[Bowhunter57]

I've looked at and shot several compact 1911s. Everything from a Rock Island to Kimber and they all seem very accurate and have plenty of power to use for a CCW.

Being a revolver fan, I find it difficult to rely on a 1911 for a CCW with the outrageous break-in period of 500 to 1000 rounds...or more. I realize that 1911s have improved in the last 20+ years, but this excessive amount of ammo doesn't seem necessary for newer 1911s.

Running 500+ rounds though a 1911 doesn't seem to be brand specific...Kimber, SA, Rock Island, STI, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Caspian, Dan Wesson, etc., before trusting it as a CCW.

My question(s):
* How many rounds should be run through a 1911, before trusting it with your life?
* If over 300 or 400 rounds, why?
* Does anyone carry a 1911 for a CCW?

Your opinions and experiences are appreciated.
Thank you, Bowhunter57

[Flint]

I carry a Colt Combat Commander.  I shot 1911s for over 20 years in IPSC type shooting, and can count the failures to feed or function on one hand.  This is with several pistols.

Break in to me is to make sure it feeds the bullet/cartridge I want to use, which may involve polishing or opening the ramp a bit, and that the chosen magazines work..  For me, very few Colts have failed to work out of the box from the 60's through the 80's.

If there is a round in the chamber and it is cocked and locked Condition One, you have one round you know will fire, and probably need no more to begin with.  I do trust a 1911, and properly checked out for fit and function, very little break-in is needed beyond 100 rounds or so to check out bullet feed and magazines, and to adjust for the triggerpull you want.

[Bigeasy]

With a 1911 type pistol, 100 rounds of the ammo I intend to use will pretty much tell me if the gun is going to run reliable or not.  There is no real set number as you state, as each pistol is different.  The 1911 platform is relatively simple, and proven.  Discounting minor manufacturing burrs and misalignments, it should settle in and run fine pretty much right from the box.  There are guys who replace just about every part on a new 1911, and are forever having trouble finding a reliable one.  I don't know, I have owned over a dozen, and all have been reliable, with none of the drama some seem to have.  A lot has to do with proper ammo (reloading issues), but that's another story.

Larry

[torpedoman]

If it won't run out of the box reliably then it is junk. clean one make sure the slide and frame are not burred or dinged up from the factory, it should feed and fire. what if you fire 475 rounds and it hangs up , do you start over, junk it, send it back? Most problems with the 1911 platform come from people who think they are smarter than browning and try to reduce the tolerances he designed in.

[Bowhunter57]

Thank you, to all that have replied. I appreciate your information and experiences.

This reliability issue is a huge one, for me. I've read more and talked with owners about the (IMO) excessive break-in period and it has changed my mind as a choice for carrying this particular model of handgun as a CCW.

Especially, after reading this: www.10-8performance.com/Reliability_Round_Counts.html

I'm certain that I'll find a more reliable handgun in 45acp, in another style. XD, Glock or M&P are a few good choices.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

[williamlayton]

Well shucks--it aint gonna break util it breaks, it aint gonna misfire until it misfires, and it aint gonna malfunction until it malfunctions.
I am in total disagreement with the thought of it MUST be totally reliable out of the box or junk it.
I think one can get a good, warm, fuzzy feeling about a pistol after about a thousand ronds of all kinds of ammo.
Good parts---and this has been argued to death--and a Good Smith--goes a long way to a warm, fuzzy feeling + it is fun and makes it your own--not the factories.
Blessings

[mdi]

I have put only 400 round through ny new RIA. The only problems were with me (installed an adjustable travel trigger and didn't loktite the set screw. Got a few slam fires when the screw worked it's way deeper and hammer wouldn't reset). I don't believe there is an area of fired rounds that would tell you if your gun was functioning perfectly. It's a machine made of metal by humans (most of the time) and no matter how hard they try, some will be better than the others, and FTFs or FTEs may appear at 200 rounds or maybe not until 20,000 rounds are fired. If I wanted to be 110% sure of a firearm working in case of a life or death situation, I'd carry 2!

But then again, I have a 25+ year old Taurus M85 2" 38 that has NEVER failed to fire.

[skarke]

Well, here's my 2 cents.  The 1911 is the prototype of virtually all locked breech handguns on the planet.  To many, it is the finest handgun ever designed.  RELIABILITY??  The 1911 sets the standard.  The choices you mentioned?  Well, uh, hummm, I guess, maybe, but probably they aren't more reliable than a 1911.

Concealed carry?  A locked and cocked compact 1911 graces the small of the back of many a citizen, law enforcement officer, man, woman, you name it.

Why might there be over 30 manufacturers (maybe way over that number if you include all of the custom 1911 smiths around the world) of the 1911 if it were a poorly reliable handgun.

The only time I have ever had either of my two malfunction, it was my fault (wrong seating depth, wrong bullet, wrong charge, really, really filthy, etc.).  Excluding these operator errors, I've never had a malfunction that I am aware of or remember.

Bottom line, I suspect that if I took a good factory ball ammunition, even the white box stuff, that I could shoot for weeks without a malfunction, as long as I clean and lubricate.

FWIW, MHO.

[Mikey]

Bowhunter:  revolvers can and will fail, so will the ammunition and it makes not one whit of difference if you get a squib load lodged in the tube of a 45 or one that jams the cylinder of your favorite revolver.  

As to the reliability of the 1911 platform - if the pistol functions reliably with the total number of rounds or magazines you carry with you then it is reliable, period.  

If you pack a 1911 with a 8 shot mag and one up the snout and works the way you want it to when you pull the trigger then it is reliable enough for your purposes.  

If you can pick up a box of mil-spec ball and go through the entire box without a malfunction then the darn thing is reliable enough for your purposes.

Lots of us do not just carry 1911s for ccw but for a wide variety of sporting uses and, as a result, demand that sort of perfection from our 1911s that shooters speak of when they say 500-1000 rounds is a adequate break-in; this doesn't really suit your purposes.  

I use two 1911s for ccw; one is a aluminum frame Commander that is older'n dirt and has probably has well over 10K rounds dowen the tube, and the other is a 20 y/o Springfield GI Model that has well over 3K rounds through it.  Do I trust them both - yes, trusted them both right out of the box and the only failures have been with my handloads until I get them right.  

Back when, which was then, I would open the box, make sure the pistol was clean and properly lubricated, pack up 4 or 5 magazines and go shoot a bunch of ammo, because I wanted to.  The thought of reliability never ocurred to me as in both casaes they worked just fine and the way they should right out of the box.  

If yours works fine out of the box then the only thing additional rounds will do for you is inevitably wear in the parts so the thing runs a bit more smoothly.  HTH.

[rbwillnj]

500 Rounds

[Savage]

Having carried and shot 1911s for half a century, I've never had one that would run 50 rds flawlessly and then fail, unless fed bad ammo, bad magazines, or broken parts. Keep good springs in it, feed it good ammo from good magazines, clean and lube properly, and it's as reliable as a mechanical thing can be.  I've run 1200+ rds through one in a two day training exercise with no cleaning, just occasional lubing of the rails. The pistol was nothing special, a Kimber Custom SS, totally stock, Chip McCormic mags and Wolf ammo.
Savage

[JeffG]

200 rounds, clean it, inspect it. 50 more with carry ammo.

[Lloyd Smale]

it should run right out of the box. I will usually run a 1000 rounds through a gun before i will consider carrying it but thats not to break it in its to insure me that its reliable.

[williamlayton]

Key word, Lloyd, SHOULD.
Blessings

[marine]

Where did you get your break in period from? I have owned a colt 1911 for 6 years and it took maybe 100 rounds to get it all smoothed out, and i am talking about the sliderail.  The only problem i had during this period was that the slide did not go back into battery after the first round in the mag.  A simple smack on the back of the slide with my palm and it was good to go.  this was also during the winter when i first got it and like i said after the first hundred rounds and its been a totally reliable handgun that i would be willing to bet my life on in a pinch.

[SHOOTALL]

Depends on the Gun , ammo and Mags . Some run right out the box with any ammo . some run for years then a new mag is added and it is a jam-o-matic. And we all konw of pistols that favor one ammo over another .

Lets look else where when will you be 100% . No limp wrist , keep a clean gun and never ever use old springs, un proven mags or pratice with carry ammo to mention a few .

I think some jams or malfunctions come from operator error but it just an opinion ! If you are a revolver shooter and hold a 1911 as tight as most hold a 38 spl. ya might be in for a jam.
Also a gun of quality cost more and you can expect more !

Guess I'm saying when you are ready your gun should be also.

[1911crazy]

As Mikey/William and you guys know i'm new to trusting 1911's after having bad ones in the 70/80's/90's.  So i'm very very 1911 shy when it comes to trusting them.  It should run right out of the box???  Did anyone tell the manufacturer that?  If a new 1911 needs break in time its because of the sloppy machining job and not holding the tolarences correctly.  The old manufacturing saying is "fix it in the field" so just ship it out.  Even with computers today the machining is off.  With computers its garbage in garbage out right so, so much for the CNC machining of today.  Its "OP" operator error its there on the screen if they can read it.....

New out of the box using ball ammo if it shoots 250rds flawlessly without one stove pipe or jam thats pretty good and do i trust it yet for CCW carry?

NOPE

When it hits 500rds flawlessly thats when i know i got a good one.  Can i trsut it now for my CCW gun?

YUP its passed the test.


My new auto ordnance army WW2 copy and my tweeked norico have both passed the 500rd test flawlessly.  I can trust them with my life.  I would walk either 1911 into hell if need be.

I have one new springer that hasn't passed yet.  And another unshot yet.  But its work in progress when they jam and stovepipe.

Its funny all my CZ pistols never jammed yet.  I shoot wolf ammo in everything

[Lloyd Smale]

lifes to shot to bother with a finiky gun. ive allways been one that calls it like I see it. I wont make excuses for a poor gun. Ive had many 1911s through the years some good some not. they all go through my standard test. I take a 1000 rounds of handloads using swcs because they are about the toughest to get to feed to the range. Before i go i strip it clean it, polish the feed ramp if needed and usually toss the factory mag to the side and use one i know is good. I then shoot 500 rounds. At 500 i squirt some oil in the gun (i run my 1911s wet) and either shoot the other 500 or wait till the next day. No cleaning though. If it makes it to a 1000 without a feed problem other then one that i know is caused by a bad handload its a keeper. If it doesnt i may address a small problem that is causing malfuntions and try again. If it doesnt do it the second time its out the door. When i was shooting competition just for grins i started shooting my gold cup to see when it would malfuntion. I did nothing but oil it every 500 rounds and the first malfunction was at round 2315. by that time the gun was so greasy from bullet lube powder residue and oil that you could barely hang on to it. Id bet if i was shooting jackted bullets it would still be going. Id put a good reliable 1911 up agaist a glock anyday for reliability.

[Merle]

I've been shooting M1911's since 1968, when Uncle Sam lent me one in the Mekong Delta. These were pretty rattly old WW2 left-overs, but they NEVER malfunctioned, possibly because they were so loose. It seems to me that the more tightly fitted the gun is, the more problems, but that may be only my opinion.

I now use a 70 series M1911 Combat Commander, since I had to buy my own when discharged in 1971. In all those years I have encountered one bad magazine (strangely enough it was a Colt) and had two stovepipes out of the same box of generic 230 gr FMJ ammo. I should also mention that I deliberately did not clean or lube my CC to see how long it took to fail. It went over 500 rounds, for the record.

My feeling is that you are more likely to have a failure due to bad, dirty, damaged, etc magazines than any failure from the gun as long as you maintain it properly. Therefore I test each new magazine loaded to full capacity at least twice. It just may be that any quality gun could be considered "broken in" by the time you finish testing your magazines, with the ammo you intend to use.

Just my ten cents worth (adjusted for inflation)

    

[Mike in Virginia]

Why is reliability an issue with 1911's, but it never crops up with a revolver?  1911 fans are in denial.  If an auto doesn't work perfectly right of the box, if it needs adjusted and "shot in", it does not cannot possess the reliability of a revolver. That fact is so clear that only a fanatic would refuse to see it.  I like 19ll's.  I carry a Kimber all the time.  If ever I need a gun to stay alive, that's the one I want in my hands.  That said, failures in 1911's as compared to revolvers, are a milllion to one, at least.  If a Smith and Wesson or other high-end revolver dosen't fire, it's a fluke among all the flukes in the universe.  If an automatic jams, it's no surprise.  Accurate 1911's are for shooters who know plenty about firearms.  They know how to tweak them, how to hold them, what to do when there's a jam.  Conversely, anyone's sick grandmother can shoot a revolver and never have to think about it not going off. It will do so out of the box, brand new, without question. 

We like 1911's because they are slim, good looking, classic, easy to hide, accurate, single-action, simple, and possess ultimate stopping power.  You can't carry the power of a .45 auto in a revolver without going to a much bulkier frame.  But no matter how far we delve into fantasy, the dern things fail to fire a lot more often than a revolver.  A revolver can fail, but I've never heard of such an occurrence.  We can trust them to the point (reliability wise), that we don't even need to shoot them before carrying them.  I don't advocate that, but fact is fact.   If you must shoot your 1911 a certain amount of times before you trust it, it's not a weapon that you can ever trust.  Even though I carry one, I know it might fail, just like yours might fail.  "Trust" is in your brain, not in the gun.   
=

[Dee]

I have been building 1911 pistols since 1977, and there is no such thing as an absolutely fail proof pistol. When I finish a pistol I will load empty brass in a GOOD MAGAZINE every other round, and see if the pistol will feed on it's own empty brass. If not, then I tear it down and find out why. When it will, I fire MINIMUM 200 rounds of carry ammo. If it has no failures, (and they almost never do) I consider it reliable enough to bet the farm on. There are numerous reasons a 1911 will fail to feed, as it is at times a finicky design, and the first place to look when the pistol has been tuned, is the magazine. There are several designs that are far more reliable right out of the box, and although I hate to say it, Glock in the 40 caliber and above is one of the most reliable.
Some have said 1,000 rounds, but at that stage of testing one had best check for wear in the smaller parts (sears ect) as depending on fit, and metallurgy it may by now, about to have problems. A 200 round test without cleaning, and with no failures of any kind, is a good solid platform of testing for that particular design.
After building 1911s for over 30 years and using one to win a fight in June of 1978, I would if forced to fight with an auto pistol, choose a Glock 23 over a 1911, whether I built the 1911 or not. For me the 23 Glock is the perfect balance in size, grip, and caliber for a fighting pistol, in the auto design. But that's just me. I also had a fight carrying a Model 28 Smith, and prefer the power of the TRUE 357 mag over the auto pistol. I have a Smith 686 I tuned for heavier use, but carry a slicked up Model 60 Smith in 357 magnum ALWAYS.

[darkgael]

I've heard that "needs 500 rounds" to break in before. Nonsense. My own Gold Cup has worked famously well right out of the box and that was more than 50K rounds ago. For sure, it's not the only one.
I can't remember my Springer ever failing.
As someone else wrote:
"can count the failures to feed or function on one hand."
+1 about that.
It doesn't matter, though, in one sense. Any gun can fail at any time.....flawless for 10K rounds, it  can FTF on the 10K+1st.
(y'know...I was just looking at the costs involved with that idea. 500 rounds of your basic .45 ball ammo is close to $200 nowadays. That would be an expense in addition to the gun....unless you load your own.)

Pete

[countryrebel]

They are machines with fitted parts. Some need breaking in and others do not. How do you know for sure? Shoot them with the ammo you want to carry in them at least 250rnds min. If you are buying a gun for SD the cost of ammo should be the least of your worries. When I buy a handgun for SD I figure the cost of ammo to practice with and carry will be greater than the cost of the gun ($500 Glocks). I have never had a 1911 fail on me but have seen them jam and it was bad ammo or faulty mags. Why not go out and run 500rnds through it just to be sure? If it ran 100% I know I would feel better about carrying that gun and ammo combo.

[demented]

 Two things- Had I junked every 1911 I came across that failed to work 100% from the box, I'd have never owned one, AND I'd have missed out on hours of fun over the years not getting to tune any 1911's.  As for my personal 1911's, I trust every one before it gets the first round loaded, I go through them top to bottom, head to tail first.

[KY Nabob]

How many rounds?

How many would you fire out of a revolver? 

Would you load a revolver and put it in your belt without testing it? 

Do you consider six rounds all going pop a 100% reliability test?

Would you carry a gun you were not proficient with, and how many rounds build proficiency?

This is a non issue and should not even be refered to as "break in time".  It should be considered normal familiarization and applicable to any gun one will use for defense, auto or revolver.

Our local sheriff dpt once received and issued 200 new revolvers of name brand.  The officers carried them for two weeks before someone tried to fire their weapon at home in the back lot.  First shot malfunction.  Not a single weapon carried by any member of the dpt would fire.  They had been carrying them on duty for two weeks.  I was called to fix them, refused and advised them to sent them back to the factory.

Anything machanical can malfunction.

[mrussel]

They are machines with fitted parts. Some need breaking in and others do not. How do you know for sure? Shoot them with the ammo you want to carry in them at least 250rnds min. If you are buying a gun for SD the cost of ammo should be the least of your worries. When I buy a handgun for SD I figure the cost of ammo to practice with and carry will be greater than the cost of the gun ($500 Glocks). I have never had a 1911 fail on me but have seen them jam and it was bad ammo or faulty mags. Why not go out and run 500rnds through it just to be sure? If it ran 100% I know I would feel better about carrying that gun and ammo combo.

 I agree with most everything except "The cost of the ammo should be the least of your worries". There are always practical considerations and 8-10 boxes of 30 dollar a box ammo is not an inconsiderable chunk of cash. Of course,I think you really need to fire that many rounds of your carry ammo no matter what gun you get revolver or automatic (or even long guns). You need to be proficient with it and you need to make sure the ammo works well in your gun. Even revolvers can have a problem with ammunition that just doesn't chamber right,or does not fire reliably. Its not common but it can happen. Someone is going to come back and suggest that if some brands of ammo made to SAMMI specs do not chamber or work right,the gun itself is out of spec. Thats exactly my point. You would never know that if it happens to feed Walmart white box Winchester ammo just fine,but sometimes your favorite hollow point is a tight fit,or wont chamber at all. You would never know,until your crouched down behind covert,trying to reload and taking critical seconds to  pull that one round that wouldn't go in all the way out. It may be MORE of an issue with an automatic,but revolvers are not immune to ammo issues.

[2ndtimer]

Our local sheriff dpt once received and issued 200 new revolvers of name brand.  The officers carried them for two weeks before someone tried to fire their weapon at home in the back lot.  First shot malfunction.  Not a single weapon carried by any member of the dpt would fire.  They had been carrying them on duty for two weeks.  I was called to fix them, refused and advised them to sent them back to the factory.

Wow, I can't believe that a sheriff's department would order 200 Llama revolvers!

Even more difficult to believe that all 200 members would wait two weeks to actually test their sidearm.