45-90 Questions

[LONGTOM]

Been doing a little more checking and your not far off on some of your prices.
Really starting to add up.
Still cheaper than the Sharps but getting closer by the time it's all done.
Don't know, might have to step back and look at this a little harder.
I can get a couple of Winchester collector guns for what I would have in it and they would increase in value along the way and add to my main collection at the same time.

That's what I like about GBO.
You get the info you are looking for along with things you never thought about.
Those extra things can make a big difference sometimes.
This just might be one of those times.
The 45-120 I have planned might not be a 50 but I already have brass, dies and bullets for it and it still has a pretty good WOW factor of it's own.
Keep talking boys, you are changing my mind more all the time!



LONGTOM

[NFG]

One thing I've found, for certain, about "wants"...it is cheaper just to THINK about them than to DO them.  The forums of full of "I wanna do a >>>>>>......" but very few actually get there when they start working out the actual prices and logistics.  You know the old saw...People in H*** want ice water, but seldom get it.

Pricing is relative...depends on who, where and when you look.  This is YOUR project, YOU have to do the legwork or in this case the fingerwork.

The quickest and cheapest way to get a 50 cal is to do a 499 HE, or one of the several other 50 cal conversions on a Handy 500 S&W.  Quigley down under is OK if you can pop for a Sharps...I would have one or more if I could afford them...and I could IF I quit doing all the other projects and things I like to do.  But what's the point then??

As far as whackdoodle you don't loose as much velocity per barrel inch in the larger calibers by shortening the barrel or starting of with a 22" barrel because of the various factors involved in ballistics...you DO loose more per inch in the smaller calibers...but you DO gain/loose something in the barrel length department, and it's all argumentative and hair splitting for the most part.

Consider this...a 45 cal 500 gr bullet is slightly longer than a .500 or .510" 500 gr bullet.  Because it has a smaller diameter it has to be longer to keep the weights equal...all things being equal like bullet profile the 45 cal will have a higher BC and slightly higher SD...45 cal/500 gr - .341....500-.510 - .286/.275.  But you do have a better selection of higher wieight bullet in the 510 class ober the .458 and .500 size bullets

Argumentatively, the higher the sectional density the more penetration so the 45 cal would be my pick.  Ballistic coefficient is so low for most large caliber heavy bullets it is almost not relative... again argumentative and has workarounds.

You WILL run into the recoil factor much faster the larger the case and heavier the bullet, but that's what large calibers are all about...large cases, large dia and heavy bullets and lots of recoil and you can always pick a bullet profile the increases the BC to a very high number...but the SD stays the same...relative to the bullet weight.  If you want more information there is a SD calculator on Beartooth Bullets.

If you can't pay the freight or have the equipment to do the work yourself then you are SOL for all intents and purposes...if you HAVE the equipment but still are short in the pocketbook you are still limited, but not as much and you learn real fast how to do "workarounds".

You could also just do a 450 NE#2 on the BC if you want a "necked down" 499 HE and have something MUCH hairier than a 45-120..or do a 458 WM or 458 American and keep the pressure within the Handi Limits...AND there are other cases and lots of other wildcats that have already been done that a just as easy and effective as rechambering to a 45-120...it's just the 45-120 is well know and "very few have gone where no man has gone before".

Spend $20 bucks and get an online subscription to AmmoGuide...that will open your eyes to the real world.

Luck

[LONGTOM]

I am a member of AMMO GUIDE, great place.
That is more or less what got me looking at the 499 along with the posts here on GBO.
Like I said, I am already set up for the 120 so as far as a custom caliber that would be the cheapest by far.
I intend to use BP in it and hope I can equal or better factory 300 gr 45-70 performance.
Not really looking for a super banger but a big 50 would be something to "swoon over" as my Grand Ma used to say.
Like most of us here I too have to many irons in the fire.
Just need to maybe let things cool down a little before taking on something as involved as the .499HE.
Thanks for all the info and the eye opening.
I usually check things out pretty good before I do them, but this time I was letting the cart get ahead of the horse!




LONGTOM

[GrassLakeRon]

So I take it that a 45-90 is very doable.  I also gather that "the edge" it gives is not worth the expense.  What I am not getting yet is that for a 45-90 using 350 gr. projectiles velocities will indeed touch the 458 win mag range of 2300-2400 fps.  I see using a few different sources that it seems that possible and keeping pressures down.

Ron

[quickdtoo]

QL3.6 says you can get the 350gr Hornady RN to 2466fps @ less than 45kpsi in the 32" BC barrel, 2342fps in a 24" barrel, and 2302fps in a 22" barrel.

Tim

[NFG]

What you gain is about 0.400" of case length over the 45-70...Yes, the 45-90 is immanently doable, basically the same comparison as a 450 Marlin/458 American to a 458 WM running the Handi pressure limit.

As to the worth??  That is something you have to decide.

The reason the 45-90 and the 458 WM touch is because they have approximately the same case capacity...as has been mentioned before, so you are at least comparing apples and apples...case capacity for the 45-90 is ~91 gr H2O and for the 458 WM is ~93 gr H20...for all intents and purposes they are identical.  The only way to know WHAT the CC is for certain for the actual case in use is to measure the volume the old fashioned way, and then do the software calculations...or...MO'BETTA...go out and do the load work.

The reamer is $26 or $36 bucks plus $14 UPS prepaid return box rental fee for 3 days, it can de done by hand very easy, the cost of brass is not all that much over the cost of 45-70 brass and you gain ~14% in case capacity, a good 250-300 fs over a 45-70...not a lot in speed...BUT...enegy is calculated at the square of the velocity or directly proportional to the bullet weight.  Meaning an additional 300fs adds a tad more pizzazz over just going to a heavier bullet.

At 2100fs ME is ~3425 ftlbs...
At 2400fs ME is ~4475 ftlbs...

You decide if the additional ~1000 ftlbs of slap on the hide is worth the price.  I think the chumpchange additional cost is well worth the added WHOP.  Just do the math.

All figures are approximates but a quick check in any reloading manual will give you similar numbers.

Just think what the additional .750(3/4") of the 45-120 will do for you in the energy department.

Take you pick of all the good reasons why do a 45-120 and forget the "small stuff".  Hahahahahah

I had BP in mind when I did my 45-120, but that black stuff is hard enough to clean in my regular smokepoles...I don't even want to think about the additional work for cleaning the brass.  I popped off 5 45-70 BP rounds just for fun and cleaned the bore with alcohol just like I do in my Great Plains, but I had soot in places I couldn't imagine how it got there from handling the cases...I hosed them out with brake cleaner and decided BP in cartridge cases wasn't for me.

Luck

[GrassLakeRon]

To be honest I would like to see about 4000 ft/lbs at 50-75 yrds.  The Cost is a wash depending in the configuration compared to buying a new remington 798 from CDNN or Gunbroker for 650 bucks.  Thanks for the insight.

Ron

[quickdtoo]

You'll need to get ~2600fps for 4000lbs at 75yds with the 350gr, 2500fps for 50yds, I think you'll need the 45-120 in a 32" barrel to achieve that at less than 45kpsi.

Tim

Trajectory for Hornady .458 dia. 350 gr. RN  Interlock at 2600 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.189   0.189   0.189   0.189   0.189
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2000   2000   2000   2000
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2600.0   5252.7   4.04   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   2484.1   4794.9   3.86   -0.17   -0.71   0.0   0.029511506
50   2371.1   4368.5   3.68   -0.68   -0.07   0.0   0.060414941
75   2261.0   3972.4   3.51   -1.59   0.18   0.0   0.092806946
100   2153.8   3604.6   3.35   -2.92   0.0   0.0   0.126793466
125   2049.5   3263.9   3.19   -4.72   -0.64   0.0   0.162490996
150   1948.3   2949.4   3.03   -7.03   -1.81   0.0   0.200024837
175   1850.2   2659.8   2.88   -9.92   -3.54   0.0   0.239529643
200   1755.4   2394.4   2.73   -13.44   -5.91   0.0   0.281148556
225   1664.4   2152.5   2.59   -17.67   -8.98   0.0   0.325029709
250   1577.4   1933.3   2.45   -22.69   -12.84   0.0   0.371322569
275   1494.7   1736.0   2.32   -28.58   -17.58   0.0   0.420174715
300   1416.8   1559.8   2.20   -35.44   -23.28   0.0   0.471722820

Trajectory for Hornady .458 dia. 350 gr. RN  Interlock at 2500 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.189   0.189   0.189   0.189   0.189
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2000   2000   2000   2000
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2500.0   4856.4   3.89   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   2386.6   4425.7   3.71   -0.18   -0.66   0.0   0.030705081
50   2276.1   4025.5   3.54   -0.74   -0.01   0.0   0.062884927
75   2168.5   3653.9   3.37   -1.72   0.23   0.0   0.096643934
100   2063.8   3309.5   3.21   -3.16   0.0   0.0   0.132097279
125   1962.1   2991.4   3.05   -5.12   -0.74   0.0   0.169369040
150   1863.5   2698.4   2.90   -7.63   -2.04   0.0   0.208592546
175   1768.3   2429.7   2.75   -10.78   -3.97   0.0   0.249909939
200   1676.8   2184.6   2.61   -14.62   -6.59   0.0   0.293468891
225   1589.2   1962.3   2.47   -19.23   -9.99   0.0   0.339418807
250   1505.9   1762.0   2.34   -24.7   -14.24   0.0   0.387907959
275   1427.3   1583.0   2.22   -31.13   -19.46   0.0   0.439075114
300   1353.9   1424.3   2.10   -38.63   -25.74   0.0   0.493040404

[NFG]

The problem with the Handi is now, has always been and will continue to be...it is a break action, single shot, rifle with a limited receiver pressure.  To get the numbers you want you HAVE to go up in caliber, velocity and bullet weight.  It can be done safely in the Handi and there are several very good cartridges that will work.  You have to quit mucking about and decide WHAT? you want, then see if you you can get it done with the Handi.

I don't know why anyone would think about a 350 gr weight bullet in a 45-90 anyway...I think a 425-450 gr would be minimum for that size case.  I thing 300-350 gr slug is a waste of good case capacity even in a 45-70....300-350 gr in a 375 cal would be OK.     Plus you can get the numbers up by going to a better profiled bullet with a higher BC...there are lots of nice pointy ones out there just waiting for a chance.

I don't see the cost as a wash either...you're talking 50 bucks for a reamer above the cost of either a BC or a 22"...the cost for the reloading/shooting components might be a wash because of your want of a larger caliber...large bore components cost more than the smaller cousins and you'll need similar pieces and parts no matter which shooter you pick.  I've been down this road many times, I have a rack full of large caliber rifles and bins full of reloading components, I KNOW how to cut a fat hog and get my moneys worth and where the savings actually are.  The cost for the shooting components is chumpchange compared to the rest of the "stuff", even for the 375 cal and over...I just don't shoot  100-1000 rounds at a go with the bigger stuff, cant afford it anymore.

Besides, if you're looking at a bolt gun or just price alone you're talking a completely different ball game.

I wouldn't bother with a Rem 798, the ones I've seen were rough as a cob, needed lots of work to get it decent and the price from CDNN when you include the cost of what needs to be done isn't all that good...I wouldn't pay $350-400 for that particular shooter and there are tons of used and VERY nice shooters out there that will make you want to bury that YOUGLY 798.  BUT...people on other Big Bore sites were grabbing them as fast as they could...mostly for the actions and the calibers to be refinished or for backup/pickup guns.

Doesn't matter what I think, it's YOUR project.  Have fun deciding and doing.

Luck

[guns-o-fun]

LT - Wayne can do the 50.  He is doing a 50 Alaskan for me.

[bajabill]

from my post in my 45-90 project thread,  fake black powder data



with same day data, I am pushing a 405 lead bullet 1525 fps in the 45/90 (2.4") compared to 1375 in the 45/70 - using 777.

Thats 150 fps more and gets me to about 2000 ft-lbs of energy which is a good plateau I am happy with for the black powder substitute.


I have not tried any smokeless in the bigger case

[GrassLakeRon]

I don't know why anyone would think about a 350 gr weight bullet in a 45-90 anyway...

What it is boiling down to in the end is pressure.  From what I have been seeing If I keep pressures low I can still get almost all the benefits of a 458 win mag, and still not break the bank.  The nice thing about asking questions and checking logic is you get rid of most of the problems before they start.  Tim pointed out in an earlier thread that the handi is good from 45-50k.  This is more then enough for the 45-90 to do almost the same as a 458 win mag.  This is perfect.  The fact thats it is a single shot is no big deal.  The 350 grain bullet is enough for big bears.  400+ is better but not for what I need it for.  Thanks to all for the advice.  All I have left to do is order one and start the process forward.

Ron
 

[45LCshoooter]

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