Problems Loading The 380 Auto

[Lead Head]

My most recent purchase was a 380 Auto of the Walther PPK design.

I decided to see if I had some cast bullets that would work in the 380. Understanding the bullet weights for the 380 run from 85 grains to a maximum of a 110 grain bullet by Nosler. Most manufacturers top out at 100 to 105 grains.

I purchased some 95 grain FMJ ammo made by S & B. I shot very well and the first twelve rounds I fired at fifty feet were all in a 3" group with a six shot cluster measuring only 1".

My search of my cast bullets came up with only two possibilities. One 111 grain wad cutter and one 115 grain SWC. Both are a bit heavier than the typical 380 bullet but are not too long or so I thought.

Now the trouble starts. I found with new Winchester brass and the once fired S & B brass the cast bullets could not be seated any deeper into the shell case than .200" without entering into the part of the brass where the case wall starts to thicken. I can actually feel the additional force required to seat the bullet past the .200" depth. Seating beyond the .200" depth causes a bulge ring at the base of the bullet and the pulled bullet can measure .002" to .005" smaller at the base than it started out at. Bullets with .355" to .357" diameter all do the same thing.

This undersizing of the bullets base causes poor accuracy and leading of the bore. This problem is present in the 9mm, 38 Super, 40mm and even the 45 ACP if lead or cast bullets are long enough or otherwise require being seated deep enough to control over all length that the base of the bullet starts into the area where the brass starts to thicken. I shoot all of the mentioned calibers and have run into the undersized bullet base in all of them. The 9mm was more of a problem than the rest, but it can happen in all of them.

If you have any doubt about what I am saying and want to see for yourself, seat a lead or cast bullet .250" or more into a 380 Auto case, then pull the bullet. You will be shocked by what you see.

Bullets with a BHN of 14.0 still were a problem. I am guessing a BHN of 20.0 or more may resist the undersizing but will still bulge the shell case. I don't have any cast bullets that hard.

I have ordered some 95 grain FMJ bullets and hard cast bullets. These are short enough and will not require the bullets to be seated deeper than .200".

If any of you are loading the 380 Auto with cast bullets and I see a lot of you are using the Lee 105 grain bullet, I suggest you pull a couple of bullets to see what the base looks like. If it shows a pronounced taper it was undersized in the thicker part of the brass. If you have had less than good accuracy and or leading, this could be the cause.

[Land_Owner]

Couple of things, why are you shooting the PPK for groups at 15.24 meters (16.67 yards)?  IMO the PPK is a pocket/belly gun and for practical purposes good for "across the room" and close quarters - as are MOST handguns.  I don't see it being practical in an "OK Corral" shootout.

What did you pay (range) for the PPK - if I may ask?  SST or Blue?  I have one of each.  Is yours subject to the recall by Smith & Wesson?  Both of mine were.

Your PPK sems to like the S&B's and chronographed, S&B's are CONSISTENT one to the other in velocity.  How do they DO THAT?

I have noted compression of the bases of jacketed FMJ's and HP's I shoot.  I have not started casting yet but am interested in yours and other's results.

[GH1]

I've loaded quite a few .380 cast bullets, but they were much lighter. 95 gr roundnose and 100 gr truncated cone. The roundnose definately fed better so I'll order those again. The TC fed OK in my Bersa but gave me a litle bit of grief in my Kel-Tec until I polished the feed ramp. Now they work OK. I've yet to try anything heavier than 100 gr and from what your results were I don't think I will.
GH1

[gypsyman]

I don't cast for the .380 or 9mm, I usually buy Penn bullets in 100gr. for the .380. A TC bullet, feeds in my Bersa. Use W231 and either a CCI or Win. primer. I seat the bullet .001 or so just under listed max lenght, and I havn't had any problems. gypsyman

[Lead Head]

Land_Owner,

"Couple of things, why are you shooting the PPK for groups at 15.24 meters (16.67 yards)?  IMO the PPK is a pocket/belly gun and for practical purposes good for "across the room" and close quarters - as are MOST handguns.  I don't see it being practical in an "OK Corral" shootout."

To answer your question, I used fifty feet for two reasons. One, that is where my first post in ground, solid target holder is located. Two, I wanted to see how the SMC 380 would group compared to my other handguns. My shooting range has post in the ground target holders at 50', 75' and fifty yards. I don't own any handguns that shoot so poorly that I can't hold a target at 50', so that is where I start.

This 380 is one that was imported years ago by K.B.I. Inc. and sold for $140.00 That happened to be what the Star BM 9mm's sold for several years ago. Now, if you can find a Star BM, they are $250.00 and up. I paid $260.00 for the 380. Probably too much but I didn't want to pay double that or more for a PPK 380 when the pistol will not be shot much.

The SMC 380 is an alloy frame. The magazines hold six rounds. Being an alloy frame, it is recommended the bullet weight be limited to a maximum of 95 grains. Heavier bullets will be hard on the gun.

The problem of bullet bases causing bulges because the bullet base enters into the thicker part of the brass occurrs only when the bullet weight and resulting length requires the bullet to be seated deeper than .200" into the shell case.

I load two (50) round boxes of 95 grain FMJ Remington bullets and they are well short of the .200" depth. I used Winchester 231 and Unique. I will start the testing by firing five rounds of the S&B 95 grain FMJ ammo to establish the factory ammo ejection pattern. When any of the test loads start to exceed that pattern, the testing will stop and the remaining bullets will be pulled.

I don't have any bullet molds that cast a bullet of the proper weight and length. I did order (500) of the Meister Hard Cast 95 grainers, but haven't received them yet. Bullet weights up to 105 grain will work well.

GH1,

As noted above, if the bullet weight is held to no more than 105 grain, bullet base bulging the case will not be a problem.

I will let all of you know how my test loads perform.

[Lead Head]

I first fired some 95 grain S&B factory ammo and it shot with very good accuracy. No failures to feed or eject properly. I figured since the 95 grain FMJ is the standard loading for the 380 auto, I can use this as something to try and match. I must say I was pleasently surprised the 95 grain, .355" diameter bullet performed so well.

I ordered Remington 95 grain FMJ .355" diameter bullets and Meister 95 grain round nose hard cast bullets at .358" diameter.

My barrel slugs at .357", so I wouldn't expect much in the way of accuracy with .355" diameter jacketed bullets. I sized the Meister bullets down to .357" to avoid chambering problems and loaded ten rounds with 2.4 grains of Bullseye and Remington no. 1-1/2 primers. This load was a bit on the mild side as indicated by the ejection pattern and felt recoil, but actually grouped quite well. I plan to increase the powder charge and try this bullet again.

As for the Remington 95 grain .355" diameter bullets, the results were not as good as the Meister bullets were. I had loaded Winchester 231 at 2.2, 2.4, 2.6, 2.8 and 3.0 grains. The lower end powder charges were wimpy but cycled the gun. The top charges didn't come near to duplicating factory. Accuracy was poor compared to the Meister bullets.

Then I tried unique powder. I used 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, 3.0 and 3.2 grains. The starting charge was quite mild and the top charge acted more like the factory S&B except for accuracy, which was not as good, although much better than the 231 loads. The 2.6 to 3.0 grain charges showed potential to shoot well. By that I mean my groups at 50 feet were narrow but strung out vertically and I blaime that on my eye strain and firing with a fuzzy sight picture. 70 year old eyes and tiny sights are not a good combination. The groups were only 1.0" to 1.5" wide with small clusters and a few rounds strung out vertically. From my own experience, fuzzy sight pictures are sure to cause this kind of problem. I will retry some of the Unique loads and fire them first before eye strain becomes a problem.

I am not sure at this point if I should try slower or faster powder with the Remington bullet. I will keep you posted.

[mechanic]

I personally don't bother with cast in my 380 because I only fire it occasionally to keep in practice, and it is my carry gun, so I load with jacketed hollow points.  I load these with 2.8 gr. Bullseye, and have had no problems in feeding or ftf.  My accuracy test is placing all rounds from a clip in the head of a silouette target at 15'. 

From my Beretta with a 2" barrel, that's about as good as I can hope for....