Author Topic: Question on Legal issue with frames?? (Read 2689 times)

Bushwack · « **Reply #30 on:** November 22, 2003, 03:09:27 PM »

Slavage---If you have a rifle type stock on any rifle that has a barrel shorter than 16 inches it is a federal firearms offence unless you have a short barreled rifle document from the BATF, no matter what Barney Fife or his friends told you. The state or local authorities can enact laws that are stricter than the federal laws but not the other way around. Federal laws are the minimum laws that apply. Also it doesn't make any difference what the weapon is used for, having it in your possesion is enough to get you busted. I realize all your documentation says its a pistol but as soon as you remove the pistol grip & attach a rifle stock to it it becomes a rifle.

Good luck
Bushwack

IATRKYHNTR · « **Reply #31 on:** November 23, 2003, 04:01:37 AM »

This is my first post on this site.

I have been thinking about getting a T/C Contender or Encore, I want to be able to use this as a handgun or rifle, mostly for varmint hunting. If I understand everything correctly IF I buy a gun that is registered as a pistol (at T/C), it can be changed to a rifle as long as it has a barrel over 16" and a butt stock, and it can be set up with a barrel less then 16" as long as it has the pistol grip on it? That is how I have understood everything so far. Please let me know if I am wrong on this.

Also I saw a post that said you could buy only the frame. Can you buy theme at any local gun shop, or does it have to be from certain dealers? Any suggestions on where to find one?

IATRKYHNTR
(nathan)

doc-and · « **Reply #32 on:** November 23, 2003, 07:25:48 AM »

Ed's Contenders is one of the BEST places to buy from. If you have a dealer to work with you.

http://www.edstc.com/edstc/index.html

doc-and

Soon to be leaving the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia

SLAVAGE · « **Reply #33 on:** November 23, 2003, 03:13:49 PM »

how much would one of these short rifle permits cost of any one knows?

Jagdzeit · « **Reply #34 on:** November 23, 2003, 03:50:06 PM »

About 2 months ago, I purchased an Encore muzzleloader in 209X45 here in New York State. If you have a pistol carry permit, the NICS check is automaticly waived. But even though it's a muzzleloader, becuse of the T/C frame and the availability of smokeless rifle and pistol barrels, the proper (yellow) form has to be filled out as if it is a regular rifle.

I contacted my county pistol clerks office and explained that I eventually wanted to have the capabilitiy to convert this thing to a handgun. She said that as long as I registered the frame on my carry permit. There would be no problem. So it is now registered as a "single shot frame only" on my permit. With no caliber listed until I get a barrel of pistol length. Then that barrel will be added to the list.

I also recently had lunch with and spoke to a local Judge about the pistol with a rifle buttstock issue. His interpetation was, that as long as it was registered as a handgun. It didn't matter what type of grip/handle/buttstock it had. After all, there are handicaped people that can't hold and fire a handgun without the aid of a shoulder stock or some other aid.

That's the information I've got here in my part of NYS. Elsewhere it most certainly will be different.

Stay Safe,
Franz

helobill · « **Reply #35 on:** November 23, 2003, 04:19:25 PM »

Slavage,
From the ATF website.
How does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm?

Prior to making the firearm, the individual must submit ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226, and receive approval. The applicant must follow the procedures described in Question M15 concerning completion of the form, including photographs, fingerprints and certifications. The applicant must forward the original and a duplicate of the form along with a check or money order for $200 made payable to the Bureau of ATF. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. Otherwise, the tax will be refunded. [26 U. S. C 5822, 27 CFR 179.62-179.65]

Bill

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #36 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:30:42 AM »

Jagdzeit that judge needs to find him another job. He sure doesn't know much about the one he has now.

Since either 1935 or 1939 (I can never remember which) it has been illegal to own many firearms UNLESS you have them properly registered under the NFA. One of those is a gun with a rifle stock and barrel less than 16" in length. The judge needs to go back to law school and learn a little about the law.

GB

Jagdzeit · « **Reply #37 on:** November 24, 2003, 12:12:32 PM »

Quote from: GBO MGMT

Jagdzeit that judge needs to find him another job. He sure doesn't know much about the one he has now.

Since either 1935 or 1939 (I can never remember which) it has been illegal to own many firearms UNLESS you have them properly registered under the NFA. One of those is a gun with a rifle stock and barrel less than 16" in length.

GB

GBO MGMT,
Even if registered as a ~~handgun~~

?

Quote

The judge needs to go back to law school and learn a little about the law

I can believe that, even though he's a retired trooper and been a judge for over 20 years. I guess you can't expect everyone to know everything, especially the ever changing laws, off the top of their heads.
It would be interesiting to find the exact law that covers this issue and give it to him for his own reference.

Stay Safe,
Franz

Graybeard · « **Reply #38 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:51:50 PM »

But this IS NOT a new law. IT has been on the books since the '30s when the NFA was passed. It is Federal law.

If a butt stock is attached it is NO LONGER a handgun. Don't matter how it is registered, listed or whatever. By definition if it has a butt stock and rifled barrel it is a rifle. If barrel is under 16" long it is an NFA weapon and subject to NFA requirements.

GB

Jagdzeit · « **Reply #39 on:** November 24, 2003, 05:36:46 PM »

I just did a search and this is what I found. I was also wondering about the Lugers that came with a buttstock and how they were effected. This answers it all. Found it on...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25

(M25) If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm? [Back]

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items. [27 CFR 179.11]

Stay Safe,
Franz

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #40 on:** November 25, 2003, 05:11:15 PM »

Yup dat's it. Also some old single action revolvers were made with butt stocks long ago and like the mausers are exempt. TCs are NOT.

GB

Bushwack · « **Reply #41 on:** November 26, 2003, 01:05:04 AM »

The Lugers Mausers & old single actions still retained their pistol grips so in effect they were still pistols even if they had a butt stock attached. This doesn't apply to TC's, they are no longer concidered a pistol when the butt stock is attached no matter how the frame came from the factory. Just make sure you have a 16"+ barrel on when you attach the butt stock & you'll be alright. If you're freaking out about this you'll be happy to know that nearly everyone has all the components needed to make a bomb right in their own kitchen or garage. ATF can bust you for that too. If they want you they're gonna get you no matter how careful you are to follow the law.

Just my 2¢
Bushwack

Jagdzeit · « **Reply #42 on:** November 26, 2003, 01:48:06 AM »

Quote from: Bushwack

Bushwack

It's funny to see that handle from someone else. My wife calls me BUSHWHACKER and I've used that on motorcycle related forums for a few years. Don't really know why I used Jagdzeit here. Probably because it's on my License plate on my truck and a loose translation of it is "Hunting Time".

Stay Safe,

Franz

Quadzillabill · « **Reply #43 on:** November 26, 2003, 04:19:29 AM »

I don't see it as being this messy. If you buy it as a long gun, you've got stuff to deal with - and that's the confusion. I buy them only as a handgun, and register them as required in Michigan as a handgun. My permit says it has 'interchangeable barrels' right on it, so i'm good to carry it in any PISTOL configuration I want. I could have 100 pistol barrels and would be legal with each as long as they conformed to length and other rules.

Now, if I add a buttstock and longer barrel to change it to a rifle who the heck is going to bother me - and why? Its a rifle. It doesn't need to be registered, just legal in its configuration (length/grip etc..). There's nowhere to lookup my Remington 700 to see if its legal. Its not different with the Encore rifle.

If you're carrying a handgun, you need a handgun permit. Plain and simple to me. Since the local sheriff issues my permits, I think he'd stand behind me as to intent if this was taken to a federal level.

I just don't see that happening.

Jagdzeit · « **Reply #44 on:** November 26, 2003, 04:51:03 AM »

Quote from: GBO MGMT

Yup dat's it. Also some old single action revolvers were made with butt stocks long ago and like the mausers are exempt. TCs are NOT.

GB

All or at least most of those types of guns had permanent pistol grips and had a stock that was quick attach/detachable. I'm wondering if one were to make the same type of QD stock for a TC already equipped with a pistol grip, if it were to also fall into the exempt catagory.

A querry worth an E-mail to the BATF, me thinks.

Stay Safe,
franz

Bushwack · « **Reply #45 on:** November 26, 2003, 02:15:45 PM »

Jagdzeit---Been using Bushwack for the last six years.

Good shooting
Bushwack

444encore · « **Reply #46 on:** December 06, 2003, 11:47:48 AM »

Oh the joys of owning such a fine firearm as the Encore.
Alas, every rose has it's thorn.
Funny thing is, all the chatter about Encores being registered as what they were shipped or sold as, and not what they can be converted to.
I bought mine as a 209X.50 pistol. Which according to this logic I should not have had to file any paperwork on. But ofcourse I did, because it can be converted to a smokeless powder firearm.
Boy does the ATF have thier hands full on this one.