Author Topic: Arrow Length  (Read 1377 times)

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Offline AtlLaw

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Arrow Length
« on: September 20, 2010, 06:22:33 AM »
Okay, I'm trying to relearn all this stuff.  Especially since I see that Bear is still making the Kodiak Magnum and it retails for over $400!   :o  I know I didn't pay that much for mine back when I bought it around 38 years ago!   :D

Anyway, as you know I've been shooting the arrows I have for my compounds and I started trying to figure out what I should get for the recurve.  I used the site that was posted here to calculate my draw length; right at 26 inches.

From what has been said here and what I've read, I should add 11/2 to 13/4 inches to that to get my arrow length.

My question is about where to measure from/to.  Close as I can tell that is from the bottom of the nock to the tip of the shaft (sans point).  Is this correct?
Richard
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Offline Cottonwood

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 06:31:03 AM »
Richard, measure from the valley of the nock to the insert tip for total arrow length, and when using an arrow for hunting you want at least an arrow that is 10 grains per pound of your bow pound, or in modern terms 10 grains per inch aka GPI.  So if your bow is a 45# bow, you want to shoot at least a 450 gr arrow.

I shoot a 50# recurve, and my arrow weight is 440 gr but now including my broadhead or feild tip weight of 165 gr giving me a total arrow weight of 605 gr.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 07:09:35 AM »
Oh!  More questions!   :D

The bow is listed as having a 50# draw weight.  Is draw weight always figured at 28 inches?  If so then the poundage for a 26 inch draw would be around 46# if I understand correctly.

I believe y'all suggested carbon arrows.  Never tried 'em...  :-\  All mine are aluminum.

Other notes:
I'm not shooting off the shelf but have a little glue on rest that folds as the feathers go over it.  The name Flipper comes to mind.
I have a bunch of 2117's that are 27.5 inches long by the measuring question assumption.  I used them for 3D shoots with a compound.  They have "bullet" tips that appear to be glued in.  All my other arrows have inserts glued in to take screw in points.
Is there any way to break the glue bond so I can replace the tips with inserts?
Richard
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Offline Frank V

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 08:43:57 AM »
AtLaw, the weight listed on most factory bows is at 28". If you go to a custom bow they will make it at your draw length.
While some do like carbon. I like & use wooden arrows. They are easier to tune to your bow I think, don't give you carbon slivers when you pull them from a target, & are easier to get heavier weights without resorting to all sorts of weight additions to get them up in weight.
Lots of people shoot carbon, I just prefer wood arrows. I'd go for woodies.
Frank
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Offline Cottonwood

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 12:19:29 PM »
Frank, woods just are not consistant with their spin as carbons are.  An Arrowsmith here can confirm just what I said.  If Richard buy's wooden arrows, how many out of that first dozen are going to match 100% to each other, maybe 2 or 3 out of that dozen.  Also what about woods warping, and then needing staightened.  I have yet to have this happen with carbon traditional or carbon modern bow arrows, it is a fact.  I have yet to have carbon splinters from shooting carbons as well, it just doesn't happen shooting them at such low fps in traditional bows.

Many like yourself maybe well schooled with woods, but for the new guy starting out, I say avoid the frustration and get arrows that he can work with and shoot all the time that will be consistant each and every time.

Sorry to disagree with you about woods vs carbons as I have just shot them to long to believe that woods are going to be better.

Offline All Hawks Kill

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2010, 02:47:22 AM »
I'll have to agree with Cottonwood.

First let me say I love wood arrows, but only a very good Arrowsmith will get you a dozen arrow that perfectly match like carbons.  Wood arrows also develop bends from the impacts of being shot and for some of old salts that how to tweek an arrow straight it is no biggie.  For a beginner, that is just learning carbon is the way to go.  They have enough to worry about learning to start out, having to deal with some of the issues of wood isn't one they need to worry about.

Not sure where you got the idea of getting carbon splinters when pulling arrows.  That might have been any issue years ago, but not really today.  You have to really be pushing a carbon arrow very fast and hit something very hard to get it to splinter out.  I was testing some new prototype shafts last week and one of the tests was to shoot them into 3/8 plywood from 15 yards.  9 out of the 12 completely passed through the plywood, and none of them had any damage at all.

The weight issue is really a myth as well.  In fact a lot of us that shot wood over the years were likely using an arrow that was heavier than what was best for our bows.  It takes some time finding that perfect combination of arrow weight for a bow.  Too light is not good but on the other hand too heavy can be just as bad.  With today's offerings in carbon we can find that perfect weight, and tune the arrows to our bow in have the time and effort it takes with wood.  Also unless you make your own wood arrows it's a real crap shoot as far as getting a set of good arrows.  Even if all the arrows are perfectly matched, they may not perfect from your bow, and there is really nothing you can do.  Most good arrowsmiths know how to get it close when making arrows, but that is good arrowsmiths and let me tell you they are really few and far between.  Most could careless how the arrow flys once you get them, they are all about the money.  If an arrowsmith doesn't ask you the following questions when your are ordering wood arrows, you might has well spend the money on a lotto ticket.

What model and type bow are you shooting?
What is the designated draw weight of the bow?
What is your draw length?
What type string material are you using?
What size points/broadheads are you wanting to use?

Even with this information, it is still an educated guess on which arrows shafts would be best suited for the bow without see and test shooting it.  Oh, notice I didn't ask for arrow length.  Arrow length is a really realtive thing.  As long as the arrow is at least an inch longer than your draw length or to clear broadheads it is good.  However, to get the right spine for the shafts to match the bow, the arrow may be two, three or more inches longer than the draw length.  I know I'm rambling on here, so I'll stop.  If anyone has any other questions, I'll try and answer them.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 05:38:38 AM »
I wrote a whole long reply and lost it!   >:(

Short version... not as glib, but...  :(

Nobody has mentioned ungluing the point inserts from my aluminum shafts.  Can it be done?   ???

I think I'll wait to get wooden arrows until I get my now greatly desired long bow.   ;D  Amazing the interest that can be generated just by shooting a few arrows in the evening when you get home from work!   :D

So, what would y'all recommend for feather fletched carbon practice arrows?  I spent a lot of time on the Eason site and couldn't determine what the difference was between the different types of carbon shafts and most seemed to be fletched with vanes rather then feathers.  About the only ones that had fethers were the alloy XX75's which is what I already have.   :-\
Richard
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Offline All Hawks Kill

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 06:00:33 AM »
Ungluing the points really depends on what type of glue was used.  If it was a "Hot Glue" then it is a piece of cake, just heat the tip and pull.  If it was an epoxy, you might be SOL and never get them out.

Finding prebuilt carbons with feathers is difficult from the manufactures of the shafts.  They are mainly concerned the mainstream archers that are shooting compounds so they mostly only offer vanes.  If you have a bow shop in your area they could get you setup with something if they carry feathers or you can go online and do a search on "Traditional Arrows" and find an arrowsmith that will take care of you.

If you will provide me the answers to the questions I had in my last post, I'll be willing to help you pick the right arrow shafts, length and point weight to get you in the ballpark.
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Offline Frank V

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:28:26 AM »
Guess we do disagree on wood vs carbon & that's ok. I still hold to wood arrows. I don't think everything has to be perfect shooting trad bows. I had a fling with carbons & when I shattered three of them stump shooting in one day & didn't break a single wooden arrow shooting at the same stumps I kind of became an unbeliever. The carbons, every one, shattered shoving the insert back up into the arrow upon a direct hit with a stump. None of the several wooden arrows even broke.
  As for spine, I think  you can get it within about 4-7 points. Example my arrows from www.whisperingwindarrows.com are 55-59 spine & weight within 15 grains of each other. I don't think I can shoot that well let alone better? I buy split hex shafts from Bob & make my own practice arrows & stump arrows. Heck we can get that much weight variation in how much glue we put on the feathers & how much ferrel tite we use on the points, or glue on the inserts. I think we are trying to get too perfect sometimes.  I don't want to be argumentative,  & I'm going to stop here & not degenerate into a argument, but some of us have had great results with woodies.
  Heck let's just shoot what we each prefer & go hunt something!
  Frank

All Hawks, I got the idea of splinters from carbon arrows from my hand two years ago pulling arrows from 3-D targets at our range. Wasn't fun & they were very hard to see, but not to feel.

AtlLaw, I have unglued even epoxy from carbons & aluminums by screwing in a field point & carefully heating the POINT & trying to remove the insert as you are heating. As soon as you get any movement quickly remove the insert & put the tip of the arrow into a glass of cool water. I've even had that work on carbons without damage. But if you are down to possibly ruining the shaft or not being able to use it might as well try.
Frank
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Offline All Hawks Kill

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 09:51:40 AM »
Frank you are 110% right by going with what works for you.  That is what we all have to do, if it feels right then it is right.  I can talk all day about tuning and such but that doesn't mean a hill of beans if it doesn't feel right to you.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 11:30:20 AM »
If you will provide me the answers to the questions I had in my last post, I'll be willing to help you pick the right arrow shafts, length and point weight to get you in the ballpark.

Okay, lesse here...  :-\

What model and type bow are you shooting?
A Bear Kodiak Magnum circa 1972
What is the designated draw weight of the bow?
50#
What is your draw length?
26 inches
What type string material are you using?
I dunno, it may be the original string but I think I replaced it maybe 25-30 years ago.  It is a multi strand affair
What size points/broadheads are you wanting to use?
the field points and broadheads I have are 125 gr.

I was thinking about a new string, but the one on the bow seems fine.  I'm not married to any particular weight point/broadhead, the 125's are just what I have on the 2117 & 2213 Eason XX75's I have.
Richard
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Offline All Hawks Kill

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Re: Arrow Length
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 03:15:04 PM »
The 2117 and 2213 shafts are in the ballpark and I would see how they fly with broadheads on them.  You may have to got to a 150gr or bigger head as you are just shooting at 46 pounds.  My longbow is also 46lbs and I'm shoothing 29 inch 400 shafts and using 225 grain heads.  To coin a phase from Cottonwood, they fly like bees to honey.  I'd bet dollars to donuts your bow would shoot the same arrows the same way.
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