Author Topic: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at  (Read 3524 times)

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Offline slim rem 7

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experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« on: May 12, 2010, 06:38:32 PM »
 i fired two rnds of hornady critical defence 90 grn through 1/2 inch face board of a junk drawer ,with 8 layes of loosely packed heavy bath room towel..the rnd penetrated the first half inch board ,but failed to even penetrate the first layer of towel.. so i went an got a rnd of my old favorite ..winchester flat nosed 95 grn solid..
 the rnd went through the face board an all 8 layers of towel ..then dang near went through the back half inch board of the drawer..i know what im going back to..just thought id post my little experiment..
 i don t like to use hot loads like buffalo or corbons hot .380 rnd..im not talkin about the dpx either .. corbon has an 100 grn[i think] real hot rnd..i don t think i need more than this 95 grn flat nosed winchester rnd in this little gun.. it gets the job done an makes an 38 caliber hole,that goes deep.. jmo.. hope it helps..slim

Offline 44 Man

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 02:26:09 AM »
Good info!  Thanks Slim!  44 Man
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 02:31:14 AM »
Just curious - Did this start out as a controlled experiment, or were the bath towels innocent victims?     lol

Larry
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Offline WD45

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2010, 05:18:42 AM »
great info..... On the thought of most ammo labled as defense type I would bet none of them do real well on penetration. I think they are more concerned with heavy expantion and just enough penetration to get into vitals without the over penetration factor of going through walls and so forth. I doubt any of their tests are done with anything other than ballistics jell and maybe clothing of some kind like a heavy jacket.  We on the other hand look at what a particular loading can do in an entire different light as in how much damage can this thing really do. I think you all know what I mean ;D

Offline ms

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2010, 05:27:07 AM »

A lot of folks carry personal protection handguns. This is a good thing, but there are some misconceptions among gun carriers that can get them or their loved ones killed. This article is an attempt to address one of those issues.

Ammunition featuring expanding (hollow nosed and other designs) bullets can add an extra degree of lethality to typical personal protection pistols, BUT ONLY IN SOME CASES. When dealing with "small" and under-powered pistol cartridges such as 32 ACP, 380 ACP or 9X18 Makarov, it is a possibly fatal mistake (to the user) to use expanding bullets for self defense.

Expanding a projectile that is too light weight and moving too slow, can drastically reduce needed penetration. If every defensive shooting situation could be guaranteed to be against an attacker that wore nothing heavier than a tee shirt, or that didn't weigh over 150 lbs, perhaps expanding bullets would work well every time, but consider the following scenario: The weather is cold and you are attacked by a knife wielding man wearing a heavy coat and under clothing. As he lunges forward with outstretched arms and knife in hand, you fire to save your life. If this man kills you, the consequences for your wife, who is present, are unthinkable. Because the attackers arms are outstretched, your little 380 auto 90gr. JHP bullet hits his heavy coat sleeve and then tears into his large forearm where it expands and lodges and his knife finds its way deep into your chest ------ or, your little 380 auto is loaded with non-expanding flat nosed solid 100gr. bullets (see our items # 27A or 27B) and as you fire, the bullet rips through his coat sleeve and his arm, shattering his forearm and then pierces his sternum, clips his heart and takes out his spine. His arm folds, his legs buckle and he hits the ground for good, while you and your loved ones remain unharmed.

I am a big believer in expanding bullets for self defense provided you are using a cartridge that shoots a bullet that is heavy enough and fast enough to expand and then continue to penetrate 12 to 14 inches in living tissue. 32 ACP, 380 ACP and 9x18 Mak ammunition lack the bullet weight and velocity to push the large frontal area of an expanded bullet very deep into heavy clothing and living mammal tissue. Because many of these 380 ACP pistols are small, I carry them in pants and coat pockets often. I think they are very useful if loaded properly. I have two Kel Tec P3AT's and three Kahr P380's that I carry often. They are all loaded with our items # 27A or 27B. I NEVER use expanding ammo in them, never.

When I carry expanding bulleted loads for self defense against humans, the lightest bullet I'll use is a 124gr. /125gr. 9mm (.355 inch) or .357 and I require a velocity of at least 1,100 fps. This is a very general rule of thumb as bullet construction and the size of the mushroom are factors too and I will not address them here. So, a 9mm 124gr. +P+ or +P will generate (see our items 24B, 24C, and 24E) enough speed and has enough bullet mass, that I would consider carrying it in a personal defense situation, but I'd feel better with a 357 mag. load of a 158gr. bullet at 1,100 fps or a 40 S&W with a 180gr. bullet at 1,000 fps.

I often carry a 2 inch J frame 38 SPL loaded with a 158gr.+P (FBI load - see our item 20A) at 1,000 fps and I am quite confident that even though it is moving slowly, it has enough mass to push that large mushroom very deeply into living tissue. I'm also confident using our "Standard Pressure" 38 SPL that utilizes the very same 158gr. bullet at only 850 fps out of a 2 inch revolver, (item 20C) but it still has enough mass to penetrate deeply enough to get the job done -- I am also very fond of our item 20D, which is a 150gr. full wad cutter HARD CAST bullet, that will not mushroom and cuts a huge hole in living tissueit penetrates very deeply and does tremendous damage.

Lightweight mushrooming 32 ACP or 380 ACP bullets, may in fact kill or stop violent attackers, but under worse case scenarios as outlined above, they can be very ineffective. If I am trying to stop a 300+lb drugged up, violent attacker with a 380 ACP, I want a bullet that can get deep and do a lot of damage at the same time. Flat nosed solid bullets do that. Typical old style round nosed FMJ bullets tend to slip and slide through living tissue and as they do this, they can get sideways and loose penetration - never mind they don't do a lot of damage as they slip and slide. Flat nosed solid bullets tend to cut/smash through material doing a lot of damage and that cutting/smashing action keeps the bullet nose forward, creating the potential for much deeper penetration than a round nose bullet. For more information on this, read our "technical Info" on the 380 ACP or 32 ACP shopping carts.

I am a real fan of using a 45 ACP pistol, loaded with our 45 ACP +P ammo for self defense. I also like to carry a Browning Hi Power 9MM loaded with our 9MM +P+ ammo however, when hot weather arrives and I can't conceal a big pistol as easily, (it can still be done, just not as easily) I will always have a little 380 ACP in my jeans pocket. It will be loaded with non-expanding flat nosed bullets, powered by a 380 ACP +P charge.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 05:29:16 PM »
I have a P3AT and a G19 both loaded with FMJ. i know there are options, but I need penetration first.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 06:56:06 PM »
I read a pretty interesting article by the FBI that stated their findings were that a bullet needed at least 12 inches of penetration to be consistantly able to penetrate a vital organ. That's taking into consideration body size, clothing and angle of the hit. For instance going through an arm first. Another article stated that a 9mm Luger Hollow Point pentrated two milk jugs filled with water, barely dimpling the far wall of the second jug. Sorry can't remember the load. What was interesting though was that a Remington 70gr .32 auto full metal jacket penetrated 4 jugs. Obviously the Hollow Point has better shock and a bigger wound channel but it may not reach anything vital whereas the .32 had more than enough penetration. Unless hitting a large bone, the spine, or head, one shot stops are a fable. The FBI report stated a bullet that combined a good wound channel, doing maximum damage possible, with deep penetration was a person's best choice for self defense but with penetration being the most important factor.

Offline markp

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 06:28:13 PM »
thanks slim rem 7. I have always thought expanding bullets in the 380 made the rd less usefull. Shooting a 95 grain .355 diameter expanding bullet in my mind has always been a kin to shooting a cork from a whine bottle and expecting it to penetrate.

The sectional density is not there for enough penetration  to shoot threw a jackrabbit unless he were half starved and ya missed all and any bones.

I second the choice of winchester flat point from the white box.

Offline U S Male

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 10:14:46 AM »
For self defense I have the 90 grn Double Tap hp's at 1000 fps. There's not much doubt that it is a pretty strong load but i've always like the Winchester flat nose as well. I have now decided to stagger the two. FMJ's have always been underestimated anyway.

Offline Foxfire Rod and Gun

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 04:55:32 PM »
ms: Where can a person take a look see at the items which you describe as "our items 27A, 27B, etc.? Personally My wife & I carry a Kel-Tec P3-AT or Ruger LCP (same gun to me) loaded with Cor-Bon for mostly warm weather use and either a J Frame S&W or my SP-101 loaded with the heavier Cor Bon or Hydra-Shok in the cold weather. With FMJ rounds, depending on the situation and surroundings, over penetration is a concern to me personally.

I would also be interested in seeing the results from documented independent penetration tests done in a real scenario setting such as on animal carcasses.

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Offline Ohio Rusty

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2010, 10:06:00 AM »
I carry a Keltec .380 most of the year due to it's nice concealability. I carry 2 magazines of .102 gr. Golden Sabres. That is the heaviest hollowpoint easily available. I'm fully aware a .380 isn't a .45 or any kind of magnum.  It definitely doesn't have the knockdown of the magnum calibers, but I know where this round shines very well. I often practice hitting a target below the belt. At the belt line and below is all soft target deep pentration area. Most heavy leather biker-type jackets stop at the belt line. Lots of bad guys buy bullet proof vests like 'Second Chance' off Evil-bay and Craigslist. Virtually all bullet proof vests stop right at the belt line.

If a perp or criminal intent on doing me serious physical harm is hyped up on drugs or adrenaline, a quick shot or two in the abdomen from my .380 will definitely have a negative effect on the person being hit. At the belt line, it is a straight shot right to the base of the spine without worry of a heavy rib cage or leather jacket slowing the bullet. A hit to the spine will incapcitate immediately. A shot into the groin area will definitely crack open a pelvic bone ..... Truly painful !! Lastly, the .380 round would explode the hip socket, instantly dropping the biggest, meanest bad guy as there is no way they could stand up and endure the pain.  A couple of gut shot rounds to a criminal will truly ruin his day, and let you walk away unharmed. Knowing the limitations of the .380, the groin/stomach/belt line is a much bigger and easier target to hit than the head/neck area.  It's all about stopping the threat, and going home to your family unharmed, and still armed .....
Ohio Rusty ><>

Offline ms

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2010, 10:33:42 AM »
ms: Where can a person take a look see at the items which you describe as "our items 27A, 27B, etc.? Personally My wife & I carry a Kel-Tec P3-AT or Ruger LCP (same gun to me) loaded with Cor-Bon for mostly warm weather use and either a J Frame S&W or my SP-101 loaded with the heavier Cor Bon or Hydra-Shok in the cold weather. With FMJ rounds, depending on the situation and surroundings, over penetration is a concern to me personally.

I would also be interested in seeing the results from documented independent penetration tests done in a real scenario setting such as on animal carcasses.

FR&G
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2010, 02:44:14 PM »
I just walked into my favorite store today, Jay's in Clare.  Now you have to realize that I have not seen but minimal .380 ammo (and only the high performance stuff, ie 'expensive') on the shelf for most of the last year.  When they have gotten it in, they would sell out in just a couple of days.  Today they have Federal and surprise, surprise; Winchester Flat Nose!  I bought a box (I should have bought two, but I'm saving my money to get a Colt out of layaway).  I have never seen these before and I'm glad I read this thread.  I do feel better with this in my gun that the hollow points in a minor caliber.  Now to get some flat nose ammo for my P32.  44 Man
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Offline U S Male

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 01:43:21 PM »
I carry a Keltec .380 most of the year due to it's nice concealability. I carry 2 magazines of .102 gr. Golden Sabres. That is the heaviest hollowpoint easily available. I'm fully aware a .380 isn't a .45 or any kind of magnum.  It definitely doesn't have the knockdown of the magnum calibers, but I know where this round shines very well. I often practice hitting a target below the belt. At the belt line and below is all soft target deep pentration area. Most heavy leather biker-type jackets stop at the belt line. Lots of bad guys buy bullet proof vests like 'Second Chance' off Evil-bay and Craigslist. Virtually all bullet proof vests stop right at the belt line.

If a perp or criminal intent on doing me serious physical harm is hyped up on drugs or adrenaline, a quick shot or two in the abdomen from my .380 will definitely have a negative effect on the person being hit. At the belt line, it is a straight shot right to the base of the spine without worry of a heavy rib cage or leather jacket slowing the bullet. A hit to the spine will incapcitate immediately. A shot into the groin area will definitely crack open a pelvic bone ..... Truly painful !! Lastly, the .380 round would explode the hip socket, instantly dropping the biggest, meanest bad guy as there is no way they could stand up and endure the pain.  A couple of gut shot rounds to a criminal will truly ruin his day, and let you walk away unharmed. Knowing the limitations of the .380, the groin/stomach/belt line is a much bigger and easier target to hit than the head/neck area.  It's all about stopping the threat, and going home to your family unharmed, and still armed .....
Ohio Rusty ><>

Interesting thoughts Rusty...Dave

Offline EMC45

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2010, 09:57:00 AM »
When I had my Kel Tec all I loaded was 95gr. RNFP. The boutique ammo is nice and looks good for a magazine article, but I want penetration!!! I want to break a spine or destroy vital organs. If it stops on a leather jacket/heavy sweatshirt etc. then I am dead! I have an astra Constable now and I keep it loaded with ball ammo as well.

Offline U S Male

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 04:06:08 PM »
Well, I was happy to be carrying the Double Tap 90 gn hp at 1000 fps until I chronied it...SURPRISE..781-873 fps yet they advertise right on the box..."1000 fps with Kel Tec P3AT".

I emailed Double Tap for an explanation but received no answer (3 weeks). Sounds like false advertisement and I won't be buying anymore...gone back to my Winchester fmj fn at 841 fps. I did try some Remington Express 88 gn hp that I had bought a while back and am getting 911 fps with them which is pretty good come out of the lil' KT.

Your thoughts?

Offline nrb

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 04:19:57 AM »
Ohio Rusty,
Wishful thinking!!!
Best target of a bad guy is the eye socket!!!
Just go for center mass.  It is where the rubber meets the road.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2010, 05:59:11 AM »
 Ohio Rusty makes a good point. I recall reading where an old Civil War veteran turned marshal advised to always shoot for the gut. He said in combat he's seen men shot through the chest carry on for a couple of minutes not even knowing they'd been shot. He said a man shot in the gut will know it right now. Makes sense to me. The lungs are mostly air, not enough fluid to set up any hydraulic shock and not a lot of nerve endings. The guts are all fluid and full of nerves. If a stiff finger to the solar plexus will put a man down I think a .380 would do it for sure.
 You can make a case for FMJ but you can make a case for rapid expansion as well, lots of people rely on MagSafe prefragmented loads. Overall, FMJ's have the worst record for actual stops in any caliber, even the .45 ACP does rather poorly with FMJ ammo.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2010, 02:37:44 PM »
 kinda depends on point of impact..i wore a p3at out trying to get good enough , so i could hit upper chest neck face, etc..
 but im not protecting family any more..so i may give that belt line an under some thought.
 still the reality for me anyway ,just might be slinging lead thier way to keepum aware,, they may be in danger too.this if the rnds are already flying..
 this would not be my favorite gun in that situation.. but it is easy to conceal..
 mostly im just gonna avoid a gunfight with any caliber ..if at all possible..
 if not then try to make that shot true..
 if im ever in that situation ,i pray the lord will make it[the shot ] true if its his will.
 if not ,,he can take me home anytime he s ready..sure do miss my best friend .. my wife..
 nights are the loneliest, in this ole house....sorry if i got off subject ,a bit..
 

Offline U S Male

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Re: experiment with my .380 kel tec ..p3at
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2010, 04:12:23 PM »
Slem...I can feel your pain...I can't imagine what it would be like without my sweet and pretty wife of 45 years..God bless you brother...Dave