Author Topic: Cannon Locks (Read 2598 times)

theoldsarge · « **on:** April 28, 2011, 10:16:40 PM »

Started a thread on another forum about a cannon lock on GunBroker. Then later got interested enough to start looking on-line for pictures of more. And came up with a batch of them - including several from here, but I bet a lot of you have never even seen them.

I thought I would post the link here, for anyone interested in making a cannon lock. http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=116ad0637400800da4c030aa0ea4c973&act=ST&f=101&t=26648&st=10&&#entry250895

dan610324 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2011, 12:29:24 AM »

no link ??

Cannoneer · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:03:17 AM »

Here's the link.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=97d1d525ccd121ffb47ca9a15280b6f2;act=ST;f=101;t=26648;st=0

dan610324 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2011, 02:05:22 AM »

a few more pictures , but any info is difficult to find on the net about those

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2011, 03:33:47 AM »

Open the links on the posts in this thread for some good photos.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=191655.0

Heck, I don't remember this one.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=87682.0

I do remember this one.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=117659.0

This one too.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=180021.0

theoldsarge · « **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2011, 12:30:33 PM »

I was not able to find much on flint locks at all. Thanks. I've got all the info I need, and more, to make a percussion lock, but may still look for flint info. I'll post if I find more. Actually, I think a flint lock would be a bit of a PITA compared to percussion, but also think it would be neat to make one to pull out and use every once in awhile to impress the masses.

But overall, I'm thinking quills and linstock probably.

MikeR C · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2011, 12:43:21 PM »

Ohh, I want to play too!

"Description:
This is one of more interesting 'nautical antiques'. It is a French flintlock mechanism made by Charleville to fire naval cannons. The tapered spike on the side is opened to reveal a trough this is filled with gunpowder and the mechanism is half cocked to allow the striking plate to close which 'locks' the powder trough shut. The spike is then inserted into the touch hole of the cannon. When readied for action the lock with the flint is pulled back to full cock and the lanyard is pulled to fire the mechanism making the flint strike the striking plate to produce a spark (which it does very well) igniting the gunpowder and thereby firing the cannon - so much better than a slow match! The mechanism can be mounted on a wooden shaft on the steel spike to the rear and clamped. Reputedly captured from a French prize at the Battle of the Nile (1797) by an ancester of the previous owner this is very solidly
made piece of kit in heavy brass and steel. Overall length 9" (23 cm)"

Thx
MikeR C

theoldsarge · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:06:35 PM »

Just found this on youtube. It explained a lot for me about flint locks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiISY9Agmo

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:19:31 PM »

Quote from: theoldsarge on April 29, 2011, 12:30:33 PM

I was not able to find much on flint locks at all. Thanks. I've got all the info I need, and more, to make a percussion lock, but may still look for flint info. I'll post if I find more. Actually, I think a flint lock would be a bit of a PITA compared to percussion, but also think it would be neat to make one to pull out and use every once in awhile to impress the masses. But overall, I'm thinking quills and linstock probably.

theoldsarge,
I hadn't looked at both pages of the 'Home Gunsmith Forum', now that I checked I see that you had already found most of the GBO links. I'm sure that there are more threads on this topic here, but I couldn't find them; unfortunately, now I'm personally hooked on the subject again, and want to find everything and bookmark it.

Mike,
Check out the last link I posted, cannonmn had bought an original "Charleville" lock, and he was looking for info on it at that time.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:28:54 PM »

Quote from: theoldsarge on April 29, 2011, 01:06:35 PM

Just found this on youtube. It explained a lot for me about flint locks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiISY9Agmo

That's a cannonmn video that I've seen before, he has some good vids on Y-tube, and on past threads here.

theoldsarge · « **Reply #10 on:** April 29, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »

I hadn't looked at both pages of the 'Home Gunsmith Forum', now that I checked I see that you had already found most of the GBO links. I'm sure that there are more threads on this topic here, but I couldn't find them; unfortunately, now I'm personally hooked on the subject again, and want to find everything and bookmark it.

Yeah, it took me two or three shots at it before I found those here, so I'm also sure there's probably more here too. But, unless I run across a really unusual percussion model, I'll be concentrating any future search efforts on the flint locks - they're kind of fascinating, I'd like to find one that looks a bit simpler to make than the ones I've seen so far - make from scratch that is, I don't know if there any kits out there to make one, but I wouldn't buy one if there were. Time to start designing.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2011, 07:44:01 AM »

theoldsarge,

Please be aware that on the link posted on the other forum that the
first link for the repro locks from a Canadian vendor has a very bad reputation for
taking one's money and not supplying the goods. I am posting this so everyone here
is forewarned.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2011, 11:56:45 AM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on April 30, 2011, 07:44:01 AM

theoldsarge,

Please be aware that on the link posted on the other forum that the
first link for the repro locks from a Canadian vendor has a very bad reputation for
taking one's money and not supplying the goods. I am posting this so everyone here
is forewarned.

Allen, Can you be more specific....

dan610324 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 30, 2011, 12:26:50 PM »

I also remember that it had been a lot of problems with deliveries from that company
but it must be a coupple of years back in time

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:32:00 PM »

Quote from: theoldsarge on April 29, 2011, 02:42:17 PM

I'll be concentrating any future search efforts on the flint locks - they're kind of fascinating.

We agree, oldsarge; Mike and I have been interested in Flintlock Cannon Locks since first learning of them about 20 years ago. We really want to know more about their use and construction, but does anyone know why they were developed and how did they fit in to the evolution of cannon ignition devices? Knowing the real reason for their being developed will help us understand how they are placed upon the cannon and what result of their use was expected.

We think maybe they were developed for safety and quickness of ignition. After all, think of the safety hazard of all those slow matches glowing on linstocks at each gun during an engagement. Powder monkeys darting in and out between them and hovering very nearby, unloading two or three powder bags to each gun. During an action little piles of powder were deposited here and there from torn or broken seamed powder bags. To be able to eliminate the linstock, with it's fiery, glowing coal, amid all that black powder, was a major Safety breakthrough.

Did they help provide quicker ignition? Were they really quicker than a vent full of priming powder and a linstock? What was under the extended pan of the flintlock cannon lock? Was it a vent full of priming powder or something
else?

Help anybody? We have really not done enough research to know if the Flintlock gave appreciable, 'quickness of ignition' benefits to justify their increased cost and complexity over the easily understood linstock. Answers to the questions in red print will help more than a few of us to consider making or modifying a Flintlock to be a Cannon Flintlock.

Mike and Tracy

theoldsarge · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2011, 03:40:45 PM »

Page 458 of this pretty much explains it for me. http://books.google.com/books?id=Ew2VQiCIj1MC&ots=pwckVQ0ycn&dq=sir%20howard%20douglas%20naval%20gunnery&pg=PA458#v=onepage&q=flint&f=false
Linstock, then flintlock lock, percussion locks, and I would think that friction primers last. I'm thinking they were developed as a safety issue, but also provided the advantage of the capability of increased accuracy by reason of the gunner could stand behind the cannon, rather than beside it, when aiming.
That makes sense to me, so I don't know as I will be actively looking for history on flint locks, but would definitely like a schematic or plans of a pretty simple one easy to make.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2011, 06:53:34 PM »

I guess everyone else is as ignorant on this topic as we are, oldsarge, so we will make it our business to start with your excellent materials presented in Naval Gunnery and go from there with internet and library searching. If we find any drawings of any flintlock mechanism, we will let you know here. They all follow pretty much the same basic design, but, like a lot of things, the devil is in the details.

We will be on a quest to find out why the naval ordnance writers of the period talked about "nearly instantaneous ignition" when writing about the improvement to naval gunnery that the combination of Flintlock Cannon Locks and quills brought. Mike and I have plenty of experience with BP filled straw type 'Quills'. Fast ignition they DO NOT provide! So, if a natural goose quill was filled with fine grain BP would it be any better? Mike thinks that a powder filled goose quill will provide no elapsed time advantage. He thinks a quick-match arrangement is probably the key to success with goose quills. He may be correct. I am inclined to think he is right. We will find out. We have already ordered some inexpensive Canadian Goose quills and we will gather some empirical evidence as soon as we get to the range again. We are checking a large local pond where I have seen swans lately. Their primary flight feathers are supposed to be the best. A quill inserted with a large dia. thread covered with glued on FFFFg BP might provide an easily made equivalent to traditional, naval, cannon firing, quills.

Tracy and Mike

theoldsarge · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2011, 07:28:52 PM »

Quote

We will be on a quest to find out why the naval ordnance writers of the period talked about "nearly instantaneous ignition" when writing about the improvement to naval gunnery that the combination of Flintlock Cannon Locks and quills brought.

This is just a WAG on my part, but a troop ship moves, a lot, in waves; so I'm thinking a sailing fighting ship is going to move a lot more, making it hard for the gunner to put the linstock to the vent, to fire the gun, and timing that with the gun on aim, which means taking time to fire. I'm thinking that looking straight out the gun port, and just yanking on a cord, would have been considered a huge improvement in time, which in practical terms could have been their "nearly instantaneous".

I'm quite sure I will be running across more history in my searching, and what I find I'll pass along, I just won't be looking speicifically for history. I'm glad you guys are planning on trying some real quills, nothing like first hand knowledge. Like Granny Weatherwax says, "It ain't what you're told, it's what you know".

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2011, 03:11:44 AM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on April 30, 2011, 06:53:34 PM

We will be on a quest to find out why the naval ordnance writers of the period talked about "nearly instantaneous ignition" when writing about the improvement to naval gunnery that the combination of Flintlock Cannon Locks and quills brought. Mike and I have plenty of experience with BP filled straw type 'Quills'. Fast ignition they DO NOT provide! So, if a natural goose quill was filled with fine grain BP would it be any better? Mike thinks that a powder filled goose quill will provide no elapsed time advantage. He thinks a quick-match arrangement is probably the key to success with goose quills. He may be correct. I am inclined to think he is right. We will find out.

Tracy and Mike

I thought we explored this once before and moved on.... Soda straw quills and tape thread covered in FFFFg. Works ands works well.

A.Roads · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2011, 01:31:12 AM »

I find powder covered tape is rather too fiddly, difficult to store (they tend to adhere to each other when stored/carried in a container) & not very authentic looking. It is but a moments work to coat the quill interior (be it straw or feather) inside with a basic wood glue (a large drop of glue on a piece of wire wiped backwards & forwards in the straw) use a small funnel & pour about a teaspoon of fine powder thru the straw, this will amply coat the inside of the straw, the rest passes thru back into whatever powder container you have opted to employ.
These flash upon contact with the linstock to provide instant ignition. Do not fill any straw/quill or a delay will be affected whilst the powder burns its way along the powder train. Splay one end of the straw (two scissor snips approximately 3/8 inch long provide four tabs to splay outwards) dap these with glue & sprinkle with powder to provide a very workable & effective ignition pan.
This is not far off how it was actually done, in summary - a quill, split at the end in seven (I think) & wound in & out with thread, the whole then treated with composition.
Adrian

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2011, 07:11:21 AM »

This is precisely the information that we were waiting for. Mike and I will go ahead with our experiments with Flintlock Cannon Locks and Natural Goose Quills as soon as we receive and cure the goose quills, so everyone can understand this concept through a video clip comparison between a powder filled vent with linstock ignition and a priming quill, (aptly described by Adrian Rhodes) with flintlock ignition.

Thank you Adrian,

Mike and Tracy

KABAR2 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2011, 07:29:31 AM »

Quote from: Double D on April 30, 2011, 11:56:45 AM

Quote from: KABAR2 on April 30, 2011, 07:44:01 AM
theoldsarge,

Please be aware that on the link posted on the other forum that the
first link for the repro locks from a Canadian vendor has a very bad reputation for
taking one's money and not supplying the goods. I am posting this so everyone here
is forewarned.

Allen, Can you be more specific....

The site is this one with the reproductions http://www.militaryheritage.com/artillery.htm

The Discriminating General is the name of the outfit and in one of our earlier threads there was info
that they had a bad rep. buyer beware.

theoldsarge · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:50:06 AM »

Quote from: A.Roads on May 02, 2011, 01:31:12 AM

This is not far off how it was actually done, in summary - a quill, split at the end in seven (I think) & wound in & out with thread, the whole then treated with composition.
Adrian

Sounds good. And leaves me with questions. Where did you get this info from, got a link? Sounds like some good reading.
Wound out with thread I get. How do you wind in with thread?
What is 'composition'? Sounds like a mix of gun Arabic, or something similar, and powder.
What does 'the whole treated' mean? It's applied inside AND out?

Not trying to be a smartass, but stuff like that always gets me curious. I think your method is plenty good, so I won't be trying any of the old time way, but like I say I'm curious.

theoldsarge · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:08:53 PM »

All I seem to be finding now is stuff that has already been posted. However, did just run into this http://books.google.com/books?id=twcQGSi1F7QC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=naval+flintlock+cannon+lock&source=bl&ots=4CkvUEswA4&sig=fSjytBBymt9cF0Rsx8JcJvkAov4&hl=en&ei=umG_Ta_MOYSdgQe0mdD6BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgy#v=onepage&q&f=false with a interesting part on Boat Howitzers. It mentions flintlock cannon locks being converted from musket locks, then going to percussion. Got a few interesting photos a bit further down also.

A.Roads · « **Reply #24 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:05:24 AM »

Sounds good. And leaves me with questions. Where did you get this info from, got a link? Sounds like some good reading.

In the mid 1860’s the vast majority of the activities of the Ordnance Department of the British Empire were captured on paper. That is to say that an immense amount of information in the form of written descriptions, original drawings, official printed reports, circulars, proformas & tables etc were bound together in the shape of 5 handsome leather covered volumes.

Notes On Small Arms 1866. G.C. Holden, Assistant Superintendent of Stores.
Notes On Laboratory Course Section A. 1865. G.C. Holden, Assistant Superintendent of Stores.
Notes On Laboratory Course Section B.C.D. 1865. G.C. Holden, Assistant Superintendent of Stores.
Notes On Royal Carriage Department. 1866. G.C. Holden, Assistant Superintendent of Stores.
Notes On Ordnance. G.C. Holden, Assistant Superintendent of Stores.

For several years, far more than originally envisaged, we (mainly Dr. C.H. Roads & I) have been working on reproducing these 5 volumes as a limited run. Every page of each volume is professionally scanned in high resolution to be reproduced in colour, opposite it is the same page typed out, because the original style of handwriting (copperplate) is not easy to read. Under the transcript is modern commentary - usually researched to quite some extent. Then the whole has to be set up into a manuscript ready for printing. There are about 4 stages of proof reading. It is many many hundreds of hours of spare time & funding the first volume's print run is causing problems. To say that these volumes contain a wealth of information is a gross understatement.
The quill tube info, detailing how made, what the ignition/burning composition is, how placed, how dried, how finished etc is I believe in either "Notes On Laboratory Course Section A. 1865" or "Notes On Laboratory Course Section B.C.D. 1865".
Adrian

A.Roads · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:17:42 AM »

Further to the "home made" quills description. I make my own paper straws, rolled (with glued edge) around one of my wife's cooking skewers, the same skewer is used to smear the inside with glue. I make these about 2 1/2 inches long & these quills fire small coehorn (3 in cal) mortars, 6 pr field guns, 80pr RML's & Armstrong 9in cal RML's (with a really substantial vent length) all equally well - not a single misfire yet. Often I add some insurance though - to aid/ensure ignition of the main charge I introduce a small quantity of powder to the touch hole first which drops down & sits on the main charge - if doing this don't use too much or you might fill the lower portion of the touch hole & slow down ignition of the main charge slightly.
Adrian

theoldsarge · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:38:40 AM »

Wow. That is ubercool. I really hope you can get that published soon.
Thanks.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:36:36 AM »

A Treatise on Ordnance and Naval Gunnery by Edward Simpson, 1862.
Chapter VIII. Locks and Primers.
P. 289, Fig. 99 illustrates the quill that Adrian was describing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_5gtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289&dq=Navy+cannon+quill+igniter&hl=en&ei=dO2-TbnJA4zVgAe7-qDqBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CGYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

theoldsarge · « **Reply #28 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:07:43 PM »

Just gotta love google. Learned more today. Great, personally I think quills (or a fuse) are the way to go. Thanks guys.
I'm still going to keep an eye out for flintlock locks not already covered tho.

bluelake · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2011, 05:02:28 PM »

I have found cannon locks very interesting--especially those used on Dahlgrens. Attached is a drawing by Dahlgren as shown in his book, Naval Percussion Locks and Primers (1853).