Author Topic: I hate my chronograph........  (Read 1680 times)

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Offline drdougrx

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I hate my chronograph........
« on: October 17, 2010, 04:14:24 PM »
So today I went to the range with my Oehler 33 chrono.  I took my 06, 300 win, 243 and 223 bolt rifles.  I also took a 4" and 6" SW m29 in 44mag and my ruger BH 41mag, 6.5" barrel.  I hate when I do this.....here are the results:

30/06:  61gr RL22/165gr Nosler AB/Av.Vel 2650fps....this is shot from a new Sako 85Finlite 22" barrel.  Groups are 1" at 100 and I'm really surprised and disappointed at the low velocity from this load.  IF I can't get a 1" group and at least 2850fps, than why a 165gr bullet???  I can get 2700 or better from a 180gr...I'm going back into load development on this one.

300win:  75gr RL22/200gr NoslerAB/Av Vel 2850fps....from a Ruger 77 custom by brown precision with a 24" Shilen barrel...I'll leave this one alone.  1" at 100...any faster and I'll be pushing the pressures.

243win:  43.5gr RL22/95gr NoslerBT/ Av Vel 2850fps....from a ruger 77MKII with a 22" Shaw barrel.  Also 1" at 100 but again kinda slow for the round. This load is not even near max so I'll play some more and see if I can get an accurate load with more speed.

223:  28gr RL15/40gr NoslerBT/ Av Vel 3000fps....from a rem700 LVSF (Lite Varmint Stainless Fluted) with a 22" barrel.  I'll leave this one alone as well as it shoots 3/4" at 100.

44mag:  20gr H110/300gr Horn XTP from a 4" M29 mountain gun/ Av Vel 930fps - from a 6" 29/ 1050fps.  Was expecting 1100-ish...but...not too bad.  Will work with some hard cast 300gr and see what happens.

41mag:  18.5gr H110/250grCast Prec, WFNGC/Av Vel. 1250fps...in a Ruger BH 6.5".  This was as expected.  Shot some 21gr H110 loads and they were hard to control and not very accurate.  This load is easily kept into 3" at 25yrds off hand and that's the best I can do for now.

Also tried my friend Grizz666's 480 Ruger with a 325gr cast load (1325fps) and 400gr cast load (1080fps) and his 45/70 contender with a 16" barrel using 325gr flex tips at 1375fps.

Anyway...the point is that I went and chronographed some perfectly good, accurate loads and now I'm doubtful...not that they can't do the job they are intended to do...doubtful that I'm getting short changed on the cartridge (especially with the 06)....why oh why do I do this to myself????? :'(

Yes...I'm sure I'm crazy...but...go ahead...flame away....what do you think???
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Offline squirrellluck

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 04:50:16 PM »
Shoot the crony! You'll feel better and won't be temted anymore:)

Offline Dezynco

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 05:03:14 PM »
Those chrony's will make a believer, doubter, or a liar out of you!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 06:41:29 PM »
Yeah my 35P sure disappoints me at velocities. I've honestly never reached 2700 fps in a .30-06 with a 180 to my recollection. Most of my rifles have had 22" barrels and just haven't given me any thing close to what the loading manuals say a powder charge will deliver for them.

Now that .223 load is barely more than a hornet. I've gotten 3800+ from 40s with book max loads. Now that was in 26" Remington bull barrel rifles of course. Your .44 load does seem a bit slow but really I've never been able to match what load manuals and folks on the internet say they get even from the 10-5/8" S&W M29 Silhouette I used for years. I once did a work up with the four top powders for it and posted the results for Kevin of Texas Boars.com. My results from that long barrel were a good 100-150 fps less than the manuals indicated and as much as 250 fps less than I see folks commonly claim they get from even shorter barrels.

Using a good chrono will sure open your eyes on velocity.


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Offline tony212

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 02:59:56 AM »
I have never come anywhere near what the manuals say for speed.  Reloading can sure be frustrating.
tony212

Offline Mikey

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 03:25:03 AM »
Hey Doug:  geez, that's disappointing about both the 06 and the 44.  I would have thought the 06 would have been faster, considering the powder charge but, who knows.  Your Sako is certainly a beautiful rifle.

The 44 mag load is also a bit disappointing as I use the same loading with a 300 gn cast but would have thought it to get to at least 1,000'/sec and maybe it does however, it seems to do the job especially when I hit with it, but that is the operational phrase.........  Mikey.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 03:49:41 AM »
Good Morning Folks!!!

Before I begin my day.......DEZYNCO...right you are......

I'm really dissapointed with the 30/06 load.  61gr of RL22 pretty much fills the case and a bit of the neck, so it's a compressed load.  The book max is 63gr...I'll try it and see what I get.  I have found in other loads an addnl grain and a half has increased pressures enough to up the velocity.  Now....let's be clear...if I had to go on trip today, I'd still use the 2650 load...animals aren't deader at 2600 than 2800...but I want to know what's up.

The 223 is also slower than I expected, by 10%...I can up this one a bit I think...but it's in a 22" barrel and would certainly benefit from a 24" or 26".  Same with the 243 but of all of them, it's load is really under max.

Mikey and GB...the 44mag loads could also be tweeked a bit for sure.  I'll get some boolits and give'r a try and let you know.  I'd like to get a good 300gr cast load to 1100 if possible.

Finally....SQUIRILLLuck.....I should be embarressed by this, but....the 223 was giving me ERROR messages.  So...I figured the screens couldn't read the bullet flight because I was aimimg too high above them....and guess what...yep....took the tops offa both screens....still functional ... though not so pretty...
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 12:39:42 PM »



Chronographs are not for true dreamers and wildcatters!

As I mentioned before one of my brothers spends a lot of money on different wildcats.  He will call me up and tell me that he is building a rifle on a certain case, a different shoulder then the commercial version and he has certain expectations for the new wildcat.  He has bought a barrel that cost the same or more than a Remington CDL or Winchester Model 70. 

I believe he has Wildcat Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. (WADHD)
Brother has a Chrony which he shot one of the rods many years back and has not used it since.  I provided him with a replacement rod but he has not put the Chrony back into service.  I believe that he does not use his Chrony because it puts the “Dream” at risk. 

He would rather protect the “Dream.”  His custom 257 Roberts Improved (Ackley) being a good example.  I rather doubt that it is any better than his stock 25-06 or 257 Weatherby.  I can remember him taking a buck with the rifle when it was a 257 Roberts loaded with surplus 4831 and a 117 grain Hornady bullet.  He was freshly back from Ke San, Vietnam. 

I can flash back and remember when the perfectly mushroomed bullet was recovered from the deer.  My brother, FIL, and I all agreed that one could not expect better results.

A couple years back he called to tell me that he took a buck using his “custom” 6MM-284 Winchester.  He started spouting of velocities around or above 3200 feet per second out of his 26-inch barrel.  According to the book the case can do it. 
Suffering from EBS (Eldest Brother Syndrome) I asked him if he had fire the round over his Chrony.

Response:  I cannot find my Chrony.

A week later he called to tell me that he had taken a buck using his .35 RCBS Improved with a 250-grain bullet.  It is apparent that top velocity at the expense of bullet weight is not the goal.  In fact this might be a compromise round.  He does not seem to care for the recoil produced by his 358 Norma Magnum.

Suffering from EBS I have become the check point for the brothers.  Our parents have passed on and the brothers and we talk.

WADHD brother has greatly contributed to my reloading and hunting skills.  He got me started on Surplus 4831, when WW785 disappeared off the shelves he found a couple of pounds for me. 

He loads and fires a few thousands rounds from varies rifles every year.  Much of this investment has been lost.  His record keeping is almost none existent.  His record is the label on the box of reloads with basic information.

A recent project is a 6.5-284 Winchester.  It has a twenty-five inch fluted Shilen barrel.  This is a costly project with custom dies, and cases.  He has tried a number of different powder and bullet combinations.

Unfortunately he is not maintaining good records, or gathering data over the Chrony.  The dream is safe but the data will be lost.

Yes, I do have the dream but a more curtailed version.  When my Dad decided to pass on his three, 300-Savage rifles I as Elder Brother had first choice and I took the Remington 722 with a 24-inch barrel.  WADHD wanted the rifle for its action.  I wanted because it was an important part of our family hunting history.

Admittedly I have thought in the past about re-chambering the rifle for 308 Winchester to gain a few more feet per second.  I have tried three different powders in it, IMR4320, IMR4064, and AA2015.  The old Lyman manuals show IMR4320 as the powder in the factory duplicate load.  I have found IMR4064 to be to my liking with 150 and 165-grain bullets in the rifle.  I am loading at the maximum load published in the Hornaday manual.  But it was not until I owned the Chrony did I realize that I was edging the 308 Winchester advantage I was looking for.  I could compress another grain or so in the case but I see no value in it.

I fired some old factory rounds across the Chrony and found the velocity is off more than 100 feet per second.  Basing a drop card for the rifle on published factory velocities would have been a waste of ink.  At the time I was hunting an old burn where two and three hundred yards shots were possible.

Brother loads similar powders for the same case, as a sample H4350, IMR4350, AA4350, WW760, and H414.  We know there are differences in the powders and the published data is different.  I believe the difference in velocity, Standard Derivation, and Extreme Spread could be a factor when purchasing the next jug of powder.

The discussion of RL-22 is of interest because of its burning range.  It maybe a powder that needs to be loaded near maximum to achieve full benefit.  A shooter was firing across my Chrony expecting to obtain 2800 fps using RL-22.  He was disappointed that at most he was getting 2650 fps.  He is a good note keeper, and he made some notes his binder.

Ultimate velocity is not my overall goal.  I get about 130 fps more out of the 165-grain bullet in the 30-06 than my Dad’s old 300 Savage.  I have not hunted with the rifle in a few years; the last hunt was memorial hunt for Dad and the rifle.  One shot, one deer.



Dads rifle using a 165-grain Nosler PT.

P.S.

Wordy yes, locked in house with Shingles for three weeks.

 
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Offline BCB

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 12:57:56 PM »
I have never been able to get the published velocities on anything except—to follow later…

I have had a Chrony since the first day they were put on the market or very close to that time period…

I finally got discouraged with the readings and did some fairly serious testing at my range…

I calculated the ballistics with the published velocities and then with the velocities I was getting on my Chrony…

The ballistics was much closer to impact points using the Chrony velocities than the published velocities…

I have never been able to get 3000 fps from any 270 Winchester 130 grainers that I have ever shot.  I have four different 270’s and NONE will do the magic 3000 fps with the 130 grainer.  I took an older Model 70 and literally tamped H-4831 into the case and then sat on the RCBS lever to seat the bullet and I got 2920 if my memory serves me correctly.  The load I was using ain’t in a book—so don’t try it just to see if you can get the 3000 fps…

By the way, I did get the advertised velocity of a crossbow that my Uncle recently purchased—that company was truthful with the velocity they indicated for their recommended bolts…

And so it goes…

BCB

Offline necchi

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 01:51:59 PM »
All of the above stories is why I'm not sure a want a chronograph!

I seam perfectly content being able to hit what I aim at, with improved accuracy, in my guns at 100, 200 even 300yrds, with my hand loaded ammo, (I'm lucky enough to have places to shoot that far).
I don't think I want find out it's sub standard,  :D  ::)  ;)
found elsewhere

Offline drdougrx

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 02:06:14 PM »
In a word....exactly!  Thanks for taking time to write the story Sisk (make sure you take your ibuprophen for the pain of the shingles)! 

BCB...every once in a while, I dig the damn thing out and ruin perfectly good loads.....I can be an idiot...wish I had someone with EBS!

necchi....buy another gun....

So...now what????  I'll start wasting components I suspect....I'll keep y'all posted though....give Sisk a good laugh while he recovers!!!
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Offline BCB

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 02:15:34 PM »
Yea to use it just to see if the published data is correct really doesn’t do a chronograph justice…

Of course I compare actual to published just to see—I know what the results are going to be mostly before I cross reference…

I do use it to compare velocity gains for given increments of powder charges.  Say I have been getting approximately 50 fps gain for every grain of powder increase.  Then all of a sudden I get 20 fps gain and the next grain stays the same as the previous charge.  I interpret this as maximum or at least a waste of the extra grains at the very end the load development.  This I did in much of my reloading many many years ago—not so much now as I take reloading seriously, but not that serious!!!...

I do use it to do my trajectory calculations.  Sometimes this is important, sometimes not.  Recently, I have been shooting using Trail Boss power.  Velocities are very low as is the intention of the powder.  I do the fps thing and then use the ballistic programs to see where point of impact might be a certain ranges.  This somewhat allows me to know where to hold on a target and attempt to shoot a group—and still stay on the paper!...

Really, it is a “fun” instrument, but it can have some very functional purposes…

The little Chrony is not really all that expensive if you get a basic model, and they can be interesting and a bit contemptible from time to time until one gets the jest of it..  Just for your own knowledge, I guess…

I won’t be without one—even the inexpensive one…

BCB

Offline BBF

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 07:02:08 PM »
Just a gut reaction for what that is worth. RL-22 is a bit slow for a 165 gr bullet. Try RL-19 and see what that does.
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Offline Dand

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2010, 10:44:22 PM »
I got over the disappointment of not getting book velocities for my loads a long time ago. But I sure like knowing if more powder is really getting me anything and load consistency.

Excellent post tho Dr. I have begun working up 300 win mag, 200 gr loads with Rx 22 and hadn't got round to dragging out my chrono yet. So your data is a help. I have to say I made one very mild Rx22 load with some 180 gr bullets that shot into .38" CTC at  100 for 3 shots. Mild but THE most accurate group I've ever shot with the rifle.

I have never gotten velocities as high as the books in my 41's or 30-06 but I've done it in the 300  Win with some powders.

Sisk - enjoyed the commentary - sorry the shingles are still plaguing you. Nasty stuff.

 
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 05:14:30 AM »
Hey Scatter....I'm going to try some RL-19 and H414 as well as approaching max on the RL22 (tho I expect the case will be kinda full). 

I can up the charge on the 41 and 44...but I expect the accuracy to go south....we'll see and I'll post if there's any interest.
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Offline fastchicken

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 10:11:04 AM »
Maybe I took a different approach with my velocity expectations, but I shot factory ammo through my chrony and used that as my baseline goal for my handloads. Sure, both of my 243s did not shoot at the factory ammo advertised speed, but they can advertise any number they want, the only number that mattered to me was what my guns actually shot it at.
  Factory ad. speed was 2960 for the 243 100 gr and my Rem. Mod 7 shot it at 2800 and the Rem. 700 shot it at 2700, both 20" barrels. Book speed for my load of 45gr of H4831SC is right about 3000 out of a 24" barrel. I get 2860 from the 7 and 2740 from the 700 with 100 gr Sierra Prohunters. My 700 will shoot any load about 100fps slower than the 7.
  My Rem.700 270 shot Rem. factory 130s at 2950 and Federals at 3020. My load of 58.5gr of H4831SC with a 130gr Sierra Prohunter shoots at 2924 from a 22" barrel.
  

Offline drdougrx

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 11:15:06 AM »
Huh....good point Fast...I think that maybe it would be a good opportunity for me to RE-learn a few things by picking up a box of factory for each of my rifles, shoot'm through the chrono and see what transpires......
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Offline moorepower

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 12:27:00 PM »
They are good for working up loads by letting you know that .5 grain powder is not gaining anymore fps, or that it jumped way more than it should of. This was all true, until mine was shot by a .243. There is an ongoing investigation as to who shot it.

Offline Tommyt

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 02:31:53 AM »
Hey Doc Rx
If it makes you too Mad I've got room for one  ;D

Then if I get mad I can pass it Foward

Tommyt

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 05:57:57 AM »
IMHO a chrony is a good tool for a reloader to help keep you safe IF you use it properly. Sometimes you'll get the velocity "the book" says you'll get but in all reality probably less likely than we want to believe. IF you get the velocity you are looking for great, if not do't push it! A chrony is a tool not a green light to press it. Remember most data posted is worked up in a test barrel in a controlled enviroment.

Some reloaders go for all of the accuracy they can get. Fine up to a point but for a hunting load we should never compromise terminal ballistics results for bench accuracy (use a proper bullet for killing the game hunted). Some want more speed even though the load they have used for years has worked well. A quick clean kill should be our goal every time. Properly hit game won't know the difference of 200 fps. If game did know the difference the 30-30 wouldn't work as well as it does. ;)
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Offline mechanic

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2010, 07:24:06 AM »
I guess I'm a mite lazy, but I load only for accuracy.  I really don't care about speed, as long as I'm within the loads listed in my manuals, and it shoots to point of aim.  If I need more power, I will go to another caliber. 

If everyone were like me, there would be about 1,000,000 less calibers in the world, and the die makers and rifle barrel makers would be extinct....... :D
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Offline Jaydub in Wi

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2010, 08:50:31 AM »
DR Doug ,
I would try one of the 4350s for more speed with the 30 06 load.
Rl 22 works great in the 300 win mag with 180s
Good luck

Offline drdougrx

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2010, 11:16:10 AM »
Thanks again guys!

Now Tommy....I'll just hang onto it...it's kinda shot up now anyway and I've become quite adept at repair.   :o

Dave, et al....I've owned it since the 80's I think and just like to play....almost doesn't matter at this point how accurate....I'll always "tweak"......
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Offline High Brass

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Re: I hate my chronograph........
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2010, 09:53:33 AM »
Just a gut reaction for what that is worth. RL-22 is a bit slow for a 165 gr bullet. Try RL-19 and see what that does.

Either that or H-4350