Author Topic: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!  (Read 4900 times)

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Offline Dee

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2010, 05:07:59 PM »
I think he's a legend in a lot of folks minds. There are some that believe everything clowns like him write. They chase every article and buy, sell and trade to have what these guys push in the gun rags. In my younger days I bought into a lot of the crap, but finally figured it out that they were a bunch of snake oil salesmen.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline schoolmaster

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2010, 03:58:59 AM »
Well Jon is just wrong. Everybody knows that the majic number is 800 ft/lbs.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2010, 09:21:25 PM »
Well Jon is just wrong. Everybody knows that the majic number is 800 ft/lbs.

 Didnt anyone tell you? There is an easy way to tell how big of bullet you need. You need the weight of the animal,and the range. You also need a copy of my book,which Im going to write tonight,called "Hunting Ballistic Tables for Dummies Who Were Stupid Enough To Pay 50 Dollars For My Uninformed and Biased Opinions" Look for the column on the tables with the weight,and the row with the range,and then look at the random number that I had excel generate using the RND function,and that's the energy you absolutely MUST have to kill that animal,or else it WILL run away,go to a bar,tell all its freinds stories about how it outsmarted a hunter,get liquored up and go back out with 20 of its friends with baseball bats and golf clubs to get some payback on you. Trust me,the 50 dollars you give me is a lot better than the ER bill.

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2010, 09:46:15 AM »
I'm going to defend the rag writers for a minute...

"Propaganda" of any kind is such a powerful force in the U.S.  Anyone who doesn't think so just needs to think about political elections and what not.  

By preaching about 1000ft lbs, minimum calibers, etc,. perhaps what they are trying to do (other than rile people like us) is to keep inexperienced hunters and shooters from using calibers or rounds that are better left to expert shots.  Yes, we all know that you can really kill any animal with any round.

BUT...

Do you really want to meet Joe-Bob-Billy out in the woods trying to hunt bear with a AR in .223, for example?  I sure don't!

Or how about this...

Someone new to the game (who doesn't have a mentor of any kind) decides to do some research and get into deer hunting.  They read that they "need" a round with 1000lbs of energy to cleanly kill a deer.  They decide to look that up and see a bunch of rounds that don't put out that amount, so they don't hunt with them.  So now, instead of someone buying a Handi in .44 mag (who hasn't heard of the .44 Mag?) and shooting at deer 150 yds away, they might get one in 30/30 or .308 or whatever and be that much better off.

And lets not forget about the stupid liability lawsuits that are common place nowadays.  It's going to happen sometime.  Someone is going to sue a gun writer or a gun magazine over something that they read about, tried, and failed or got hurt doing.  "Well your honor, Mr. So & So of  Shootin' and Killin' Magazine used a .218 Bee to take a record Brown Bear, so I thought that it would be fine to do it too.  I didn't mean for the guide to get killed when the wounded bear attacked us.  It's not my fault, they told us it could be done."

We can preach about common sense all we want, but we all KNOW that common sense isn't so common anymore.

I sure wouldn't open myself up for that kind of craziness if I were a gun writer.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2010, 09:54:02 AM »
In Va. a handgun and round used must generate 350 ft lb energy at the muzzle .  :-[

If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2010, 12:10:37 PM »
In KY you can use ANY centerfire rifle or handgun cartridge for deer.  Yes, you could legally hunt with a .25ACP in KY.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2010, 03:48:24 AM »
25acp. now that's a light packing gun for the moutian Elk hunt ! ;D ;D ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2010, 09:06:33 AM »
Got to be quiet and get REALLY close.  A new definition to "reach out and touch'em".

Offline mrussel

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2010, 08:00:05 PM »
I'm going to defend the rag writers for a minute...

"Propaganda" of any kind is such a powerful force in the U.S.  Anyone who doesn't think so just needs to think about political elections and what not.  

By preaching about 1000ft lbs, minimum calibers, etc,. perhaps what they are trying to do (other than rile people like us) is to keep inexperienced hunters and shooters from using calibers or rounds that are better left to expert shots.  Yes, we all know that you can really kill any animal with any round.

BUT...

Do you really want to meet Joe-Bob-Billy out in the woods trying to hunt bear with a AR in .223, for example?  I sure don't!

Or how about this...

Someone new to the game (who doesn't have a mentor of any kind) decides to do some research and get into deer hunting.  They read that they "need" a round with 1000lbs of energy to cleanly kill a deer.  They decide to look that up and see a bunch of rounds that don't put out that amount, so they don't hunt with them.  So now, instead of someone buying a Handi in .44 mag (who hasn't heard of the .44 Mag?) and shooting at deer 150 yds away, they might get one in 30/30 or .308 or whatever and be that much better off.

And lets not forget about the stupid liability lawsuits that are common place nowadays.  It's going to happen sometime.  Someone is going to sue a gun writer or a gun magazine over something that they read about, tried, and failed or got hurt doing.  "Well your honor, Mr. So & So of  Shootin' and Killin' Magazine used a .218 Bee to take a record Brown Bear, so I thought that it would be fine to do it too.  I didn't mean for the guide to get killed when the wounded bear attacked us.  It's not my fault, they told us it could be done."

We can preach about common sense all we want, but we all KNOW that common sense isn't so common anymore.

I sure wouldn't open myself up for that kind of craziness if I were a gun writer.

 Fair enough. I can certainly see the point in the statement "you need X to kill Y",with the unwritten qualification,"You need X to kill Y unless you know enough to know you only need Z"

Offline PawPaw

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2010, 11:40:10 AM »
Sundra doesn't write for experts, he writes to sell articles.

I don't write for experts either.  Most of what I write is for common folks.  Frugal Outdoorsmen.

However, that old canard about 1000 foot/pounds for deer is good advice for the fellow who's thinking about buying a deer rifle.  Yeah, I know.  I've seen deer killed with a .22 LR.  Bullet placement is everything.

But, don't be too hard on Sundra.  If he wrote an article advocating the .22LR for deer, we'd string him up.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2010, 07:36:52 PM »
I guess this means you can't kill a deer with a 44mag handgun. ::)

Or a 45 Colt for that matter.

Darn! I suspected that the deer was playing 'possum when I took him to get the venison processed.

"I heard if your attacked by a human,just play dead and they will leave you alone....."

Offline gendoc

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2010, 03:57:02 PM »
i too took one wifa hornet at 50ft, right in tha brain.... it flopped right after it had a head-on wifa big oak tree.........wonder how much energy that widda oak has ??

and i doan thank it wudda ran much further anaway, cus its motor control center was shut down
and blown out !!!  ;D

btw.... when i wasa little kid, i gotta few wifa 22long that took more energy ta pull tha trigger than it had
out tha muzzle.  but i know they don't rate energy today like they did 50 years ago. ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline Blue Duck

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2010, 04:34:20 AM »
Numbers and statistics.  The writers and polititians friend.   The number of pounds of meat put on the table by less then 1000 pounds of energy would be amazing to them....

Offline ironglow

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2010, 04:31:12 PM »
  Some of the pistolero afficinados have been droping big, notheastern whitetails for years with .357 mags. Dee said he has dropped them with a .22 hornet.
  In the Indian reservations nearby me, the .22 mag is a popular round for deer, but they can hunt anytime and use different methods than the rest of us..   Once more..bullet placement is the key!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2010, 04:35:42 PM »
  Some of the pistolero afficinados have been droping big, notheastern whitetails for years with .357 mags. Dee said he has dropped them with a .22 hornet.
  In the Indian reservations nearby me, the .22 mag is a popular round for deer, but they can hunt anytime and use different methods than the rest of us..   Once more..bullet placement is the key!

Actually ironglow, I have never owned or fired a 22 Hornet. You got our Jeep Avatars mixed up. Spanky is the 22 hornet man. The lightest I have is a 357 magnum Model 92, BUT! Whitetails beware.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ironglow

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2010, 01:32:49 AM »
Whoops! My mistake..sorry
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2010, 03:07:00 AM »
The bottom line on this is common sense. Next time you gut a deer take a look at the rib cage, and the thickness of the ribs. Then ask yourself: How much energy does it really take to punch thru less than a quarter inch of actual bone? Not much.
If ole John were talking to my now deceased for many years Cherokee Grandpa, my Grandpa would think him crazy. Today however, we are the ones that are crazy for listening to such notions. I have heard folks say, that believe themselves experts, that a 3030 is no good in Wyoming or Montana when hunting deer or elk. Really? So before the 3006, and the 300 win mag, and others, no one up there killed deer or elk?
My Grandfather on my other side (a white guy) used to say that Dodges were no good, but I sure saw a bunch of'em on the road, and used to wonder about that as a kid.
As a youngster I too fell for much of the gun rag CRAP, and then noticed at about age 40, that it was just that. CRAP! At age 60, I am now back where I started, am happier, have more money in my pocket, and am not frustrated when I open my gun safe to choose a gun out of the many there. Why? I sold most all of'em, and went back to my roots, and what works. The debate will continue, but I will be like the old man sitting on the porch watching the newest "financed" cars whiz by, and when it cools I'll go and polish my my old paid for Chevy.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2010, 03:55:42 AM »
  You had me worried there for a while....  I thought at the end you was going to say you was polishing your old paid for Dodge!!!   :D

  DM

Offline Dee

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2010, 10:22:18 AM »
I have a paid for Chrysler. Will that work for ya? ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2010, 08:29:33 PM »
Works for me. I got a paid for Oldsmobile! Jeep's paid for, too!
Regards,
Sweetwater

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Offline PawPaw

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2010, 03:18:59 PM »
Re-reading the thread

Quote
Do you really want to meet Joe-Bob-Billy out in the woods trying to hunt bear with a AR in .223, for example?  I sure don't!

There's a Zumbo moment for you.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2010, 04:57:13 PM »
Re-reading the thread

Quote
Do you really want to meet Joe-Bob-Billy out in the woods trying to hunt bear with a AR in .223, for example?  I sure don't!

There's a Zumbo moment for you.

 Im not to worried about that,Im worried about stumbling into that wounder bear he shot.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2010, 03:28:54 AM »
Ya'll got me wondering , how many hunters hunt in old Dodge P/U trucks and how many critters were taken with 44-40's   ;D
 I mean nither one should have happened right ? ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2010, 03:31:57 AM »
BTW At one time I shot IMHSA with a guy who said in VN a tiger came out in front of his patrol and a guy raked down its side with M-16 with little effect. Hey were there tigers over there ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2010, 03:35:56 AM »
BTW At one time I shot IMHSA with a guy who said in VN a tiger came out in front of his patrol and a guy raked down its side with M-16 with little effect. Hey were there tigers over there ?

Yes, my buddy Bob shot oneout of the door of a helecopter. He was a door gunner. I highly doubt a tiger would rect with "little effect" if hit mulitple times with 5.56 ball.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2010, 03:45:01 AM »
were there tigers over there ?

Yes, and it always angered me the odd times one was chased down and killed by a helicopter crew...   :(
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2010, 08:03:11 AM »
BTW At one time I shot IMHSA with a guy who said in VN a tiger came out in front of his patrol and a guy raked down its side with M-16 with little effect. Hey were there tigers over there ?

Yes, my buddy Bob shot oneout of the door of a helecopter. He was a door gunner. I highly doubt a tiger would rect with "little effect" if hit mulitple times with 5.56 ball.
The whole story- They were in some kind of camp "up north" he decribed a triangle with fox holes out 50 or so yards in front of the trenches. At night they would communicate with the fox holes . He said idea was the fox holes would be attacked and warn main force in trenches. One fox hole stopped communicating during the night. They went on alert and at day break went to see what happened. One man of a 2 man team was missing , a tiger was supposed to have got him . They located the body at which time the tiger showed up . A guy shot him with the M-16 and the tiger went back in the brush. The guy said it just walked away like it wasn't hit. End of story. Now I have no idea if it is true or BS. But I have seen deer shot that showed no effect only to run a distance and fall dead. Never shot a tiger , dated a couple  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Jon Sundra declares 1K ft lbs "necessary" to kill deer!
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2010, 07:30:48 AM »
 I've learned more about what calibers kill what over a couple beers with a 4th generation rancher than 20 years of magazine reading. I only own one gun that reaches over 1,000 ftlbs and have not used it in 7 years. Haven't needed it.