Herter's Single Action Revolver

[Blackhawker]

I came across a Herter's single action revolver the other day at Cabela's.  The tag attached listed it as 38-40 and since I've been looking to get an old and rare Blackhawk in this caliber, I thought that maybe it might be a good "starter" revolver for the caliber in order to determine if I want to really go that way.....loading and shooting the caliber.

I was told that the revolver had been sitting on the shelf for over a year listed at $250 and was finally marked down quite a bit a week ago.  I talked em down another $25 or so on it and decided to buy it.  It's overall condition on the outside is a little rough with a small amount of pitting in a few spots, the blueing is a bit faded and the grip panel on the gate side is cracked but looks fixable.  On the inside, the revolver looks pretty good.  The barrel has a little bit of lead in it that can easily be removed but I saw no rust or pitting.  The back of the frame where the cylincer rides has a little set back but not any worse than on some of my lighter used Blackhawks.  The revolver seems to function well and and locks up fairly tight when cocked.  It also has a fantastic trigger and trigger pull that is equivelent to or even better than any 3-screw Blackhawk I've fired.  The cylinder throats look perfect but the back side of the chambers is where the fun begins.  The chambers had been bored out to 38-40's.  YES, this revolver WAS a 401 powermag.  The stamping on the barrel has been etched over but can barely be read as ".401 Calibre" and right next to it there is a new professional looking stamping of 38-40.  

According to an article written by Lee Martin; "Ruger Conversions 38-40 Winchester", a gunsmith by the name of Bernard Nelson commonly converted the 401 Powermags to 38-40 as they can be fired at +P pressures and velocities from the Herter's revolver.  When looking at these chambers, I would not say that this gun had been worked on by a "master" gunsmith so I doubt that this was the work of Bernard Nelson.  The chambers are a bit rough where the reeming was done and I am not sure if the shoulder has been cut to the proper length, however, I was able to easily drop factory rounds into each chamber and they fit flush.

My hopes are that this revolver will work and shoot well for me with standard 38-40 loads.  If so, I will probably have it refinished since it's overall appearance is a bit sad.  I'm not going to shoot hotrodded loads from it, which is my intention should I find a Ruger Blackhawk in this caliber, but instead, would like to just use this gun as a means of a starting place for getting me into the 38-40 caliber.  The gun cost me near to nothing to purchase so I figured it was worth the $$$ to at least give it a try.  

If any of you have any experience with Herter's revolvers I would love to hear your opinions or advice as there is limited info on them out in circulation.

[sixgun_symphony]

 I never had a Herter's revolver but you got me curious. Since you are going to get it refinished, how about posting some before and after pictures? For that matter, how about a range report?

[Chas.]

I bought a Herter's PowerMag new in the mid-60's.  The loads I was using caused the basepin to bend so I sent the gun back in exchange for another one.  I was new at reloading and don't remember the load (of course), but I did have a reloading manual and always went by it.  The second one did the same thing, so I returned it for a refund and bought a Super Blackhawk which I still have.  That is about all the recollection I have of that gun.

[44 Man]

I can't give you much more info except that the guns were built in Germany by Sauer, which became Sig-Sauer, which became Sig.  They are well made.  Sauer also built the Hawes and Hy Hunter guns on the same platform but without the adjustable sights of the Herters.  Some of the Herters had normal grip frames and some had extended, ala Super Blackhawk.  I own a Hawes in 44 Mag and it is a good, accurate gun and I like it.  I had a tough time back in the late 60's when I was young, deciding between a Hawes .44 mag or a Ruger.  The Hawes was $79 while the Ruger was $87.  The Ruger won out because of the adjustable sights that time, but I'm having fun with my Hawes now.  I hope your gun shoots well for you and you have fun with your also.  I would love to see some pictures.  44 Man

[Blackhawker]

Thanks for the info guys.  At this time, I don't even have the gun in hand yet.  I have to wait until Monday night to pick it up.  Aside from that, I don't even have any ammo to shoot through it and I'm sure it'll be a while before I shoot it anyway.  In fact, I'm thinking of having someone look it over before I shoot it.  I've never done that before but as I said, this one is a little rough looking and I've never bought a gun in such condition before.  I feel like I bought an old pick up truck with 350,000 miles on it.  Ironically, it's hard to believe that I paid almost (not quite) twice as much as you did, 44 man, for your Hawes when it was brand new.  What's even more ironic is that a couple of 50 round boxes of 38-40 ammo costs about as much as I paid for the gun.  I'll be looking forward to reloading for this one.

By the way 44 man, this one has a strange looking grip frame.  The bottom peaks are somewhat exagerated but it's comfortable to handle.  The rear sight is HUGE and clunky.  In fact, the whole gun is sort of clunky looking.  The spots of pitting add to the look and basically make it look like an old "clunker".   

Chas, I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck with yours.  I hope I don't run across the same.  Parts for one today have to be pretty scarce.  Glad you found a nice Blackhawk.  You just can't beat one of those for the money, hands down! 

Sixgun:  I don't know if this revolver will ever be worth refinishing but if it turns out to be a nice buy and it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, maybe I'll have it done someday.  I will, for sure, take pictures before and after and post them but in all honesty, that could be a year from now, if it ever comes to being.

[flatgate]

Here's an image from my buddies over at GunBlast.com



Taffin's Big Bore Sixguns contains a little bit of info on the PowerMag's.

flatgate

[Blackhawker]

Well, I made it out to the range last night and tried it out.  What happened wasn't very good.

I suppose I should start out with prep etc.  I loaded up 50 mild loads (mid-range according to Lyman's 49th edition). The only difference is that I used Berry's plated bullets at 180 grains rather than the 175 grain cast bullet.  The plated bullets are soft enough to put a crimp into them so I didn't have any problems with crimping or chambering etc.  Although I haven't slugged the barrel, I took a quick measurement with my micrometer and found it to be somewhere around  .402 inches.  I know, that's not the proper way of doing things and I will officially slug the barrel to get an accurate measurement.  However, when I give you the next measurement, you'll see why slugging wasn't high on my list.  I mic'd the chamber throats and found them to be an enormous .408" to .409".  I don't know if this is bad or not but it seems to me that the throats should be more like .404 if the barrel is .402 but maybe I'm wrong.  The whole thing had me concerned however because I thought that maybe the bullets might slam into the lower part of the force cone when the gun is held level but the actual test firing would determine that.

The range test:  I fired six rounds from the pistol at a target out at roughly 20 feet.  All six rounds fired off hand fell within about a three or four inch group.  Could be better but not bad for an old junker that I had no idea if it would even hit the target.  I opened up the loading gate and the cartridges ejected with little to no force at all.  It wasn't until I fired the next six rounds that I discovered some weird stuff going on.  After about the second or third round from the second cylinder full, I saw something fall to the table in front of me.  I looked down and there were at least three 1/3 moon shaped filings of copper plated lead bullet laying there.  YUP, the bullets were shaving off as being fired into the force cone.  I fired a few more rounds (which maybe I shouldn't have ??) and another shaving got jammed up into the cylinder.  Once I freed the jam, I fired a next round and nothing.  So, I opened thing up (after waiting a half minute or so with the gun pointed downrange) and took the cylinder out.  Sure enough, the primer had been struck but not hard enough.  I emptied the cylinder all but the one cartridge that had been "tapped" and tried to fire it again.  NOTHING!  I brought it around again and NOTHING.  I decided to change it's position in the cylinder and BANG, off it went.  I had the same thing happen once again with another cartridge.

After close examination of the fired brass, I've noticed that some of the brass has sharper shoulders than others.  I've also noted that the fired brass now has shoulders that have been moved up nearly a quarter inch by comparison to unfired cartridges.  From this information, I can only guess that the chambers had been reemed incorrectly, but maybe I'm wrong.    If so, it might be possible that one chamber is deeper than the others and perhaps that's the reason for the soft primer strikes.  

At this point, I don't know what to think.  If anything I think the cylinder is trash and maybe the rest of the pistol is OK but where on earth does one find a cylinder for an old gun like this, especially one that has been rechambered to this caliber?  I don't know if it's worth having one made.  As of now, I have about as much money sunk into reloading equipment as I do the gun itself.  I can stop or move on or just wait until I can find anther strong framed 38-40 that comes along, which is next to never without paying a dreadful price for it.

Well, as my thoughts were when I purchased this thing; "It's very cheep and probably worth the risk".  Unfortunately, this one has fallen to the bad side of the gamble.  For future endeavors, I guess I'd better stick with Blackhawks!  

I don't know if this one is totally beaten so any suggestions are much appreciated.

Blackhawker

[gcrank1]

Ouch! That is a shame.........
The possibly bad cyl reaming aside, is the timing really OK?
Is the bearrel good; ie, any loose spots in the bore?
If so, contact GunParts for a std. 401 replacement cylinder and have it properly reamed? I know, good money after bad, but at this point you cant troll for a buyer with a clear conscience.
If you cant find a .401 cyl. maybe a .44 and barrel? (Dont know if they made it in .357Mag)
Another way to go, but not as a 38-40, and it would be even more money than above is to have a smith bore the cylinders, sleeve and rechamber to, say 38Spl/357Mag, and rebarrel it.
Like with hot rods and custom motorcycles, all it takes is cubic dollars.

[Blackhawker]

Ouch! That is a shame.........
The possibly bad cyl reaming aside, is the timing really OK?
Is the bearrel good; ie, any loose spots in the bore?
If so, contact GunParts for a std. 401 replacement cylinder and have it properly reamed? I know, good money after bad, but at this point you cant troll for a buyer with a clear conscience.
If you cant find a .401 cyl. maybe a .44 and barrel? (Dont know if they made it in .357Mag)
Another way to go, but not as a 38-40, and it would be even more money than above is to have a smith bore the cylinders, sleeve and rechamber to, say 38Spl/357Mag, and rebarrel it.
Like with hot rods and custom motorcycles, all it takes is cubic dollars.

A guy at the range last night suggested that maybe the cylinder pin is bad.  Funny, because that's a common failure to these revolvers, as I have read.  So, for kicks, this morning I took my cylinder pin from one of my Blackhawks and changed it out with the original.  Believe it or not, it locked up better and there was less front to back play in it.  So maybe the cylinder pin is bad.  (for starters anyway) 

Another thing I noted as odd was the gap between the cylinder and force cone.  When this pistol is cocked, there is hardly a gap at all by comparison to my Blackhawks.  The gap in my 357 Blackhawk is HUGE by comparison.  What I did find odd is that for whatever gap there is on this Herter's revolver, near the bottom of the gap, there is hardly any light (if any) that passes through.  It's almost as if the barrel is riding right up against the cylinder near the bottom of the chamber.  Weird!  That being so, maybe that's why the bullets are shaving off.   
Whatever the case, I know the chambers have been bored incorrectly. 

I'd like to stay with the 38-40 if I can.  If a cylinder can be found or made at a decent price (provided the rest of the gun is OK), then I'll look into it. 
Thanks for the advice and ideas gcrank!

[gcrank1]

Regarding that cyl. gap; with it cocked and empties chambered are you holding it up and pulling back on the cyl. to the recoil shield? If it is still a min. gap thats good, the rear face of the barrel can be dressed to provide a square, even clearance, but only IF you are going to be using that cylinder. I doubt this is causing the shaving, more likely that would be by incomplete (most common) or over rotation of the cyl. (bad timing).

[Blackhawker]

Regarding that cyl. gap; with it cocked and empties chambered are you holding it up and pulling back on the cyl. to the recoil shield? If it is still a min. gap thats good, the rear face of the barrel can be dressed to provide a square, even clearance, but only IF you are going to be using that cylinder. I doubt this is causing the shaving, more likely that would be by incomplete (most common) or over rotation of the cyl. (bad timing).

I am not sure if this revolver is out of timing.  In fact, I don't know how to determine that and I was going to talk to a gunsmith about it.

As for the cylinder gap, something is very odd with this revolver but I have read other owners say the same thing about theirs so maybe it's the norm with the Herter's.    The cylinder in general has a LOT of front to back play, however, when fully cocked, the play is minimal.  Another note of oddness is that when half cocked and the cylinder is in it's "free" mode, the cylinder rotates freely but it doesn't free spin as say an old model Blackhawk or the like.  Instead, it only indexes to the next chamber (which is kinda cool).  No matter how hard you spin the cylinder, it might index three spaces at best.  I examined this and found that the hand is what is causing all that I have described above.  The hand puts a LOT of pressure on the cylinder and when the revolver is in it's fully cocked mode, the hand is at it's farthest forward position, hence, pushing the cylinder as far forward as possible.  Yes, with some effort, the cylinder can be pushed back and the gap then appears normal but not quite as big as on my Blackhawks.  I haven't measured the actual gap on this revolver nor have I ever measured them in any of my revolvers for that matter.  In any case, I'm not sure if the cylinder moves back under when under fire unless the case bulges enough just before recoiling back into the back frame of the revolver.  It was suggested to me by a shooter in the shop last night that maybe a washer or buffer in front of the cylinder might help. 

One thing I did note and thought of last night is that the force cone on this gun is very sharp.  By that I mean that the corners are sharp and there is very little "funnel" effect at the mouth of the barrel.  Although I continue to believe that the cylinder on this gun is shot, I wonder if opening up the force cone might help stop some of the bullet shaving.    However, it's a point not worth thinking about if the cylinder has been ruined.

[gcrank1]

I think any decent Colt or Ruger 'smith could diagnose what need to be addressed, but if he would want to work on it is another question.
Upon ignition the brass expands to cling to the cyl. walls and the cyl.complete recoils back to the recoil shield.
The cyl. end shake should not be excessive or this front to rear hammering effect will take a toll.
The forcing cone sounds as if it does need to be redone, and IF you keep this barrel you will likely find the tool required in the Brownell's cat.
Lot of issues, but if they are done in the proper methodical mannor you can get it!

[44 Man]

Well, if it were mine, I know where I would start.  I'd have a 'smith' cut a good forcing cone in the barrel and try it again with your loads.  I would be careful not to move the 'new' shoulders on your brass back anymore than necessary.  You will find this is fairly common on 38-40's to move the shoulder forward, especially on factory loads.  
If that works for you great.  If not, or if you are not getting acceptable accuracy, I would get a .41 mag expander and try some .410 cast bullets in that brass.  Pick some middle of the road loads and give that a try.  Someone I'm sure will have a fit at that suggestion but I have run .459 hard cast bullets through and old Dakota .45 colt that had .460 throats and a .451 barrel with no harm at all.  Normal .452 bullets would pattern in that old gun but the .459's shot well over 9 gr of Unique with no pressure signs.  Those bullets were cast from a 45-70 mold for a 250 gr RNFP gas check bullet.  I ran it with no gas checks and 'as cast' without sizing down, just lubed.  I'm just saying by this, that carefully running .008 oversize bullets were no problem in my gun.  I'd consider trying it before I went to a lot of expense.  
If you don't want to 'play' with loading for it, you can pick up a .44 mag cylinder and barrel from Gun Part Corp for less than $100 for both.  They are listed for the 'Hawes large frame' and you will have to remove the fixed front sight and install yours on to the barrel.  Just another option.
If you had the Ruger pin in when you were getting light hammer strikes, remember the Ruger pin has a plunger on the back to press the transfer bar back.  It will also push back against your hammer as it falls.  If you did not, then a couple thousands shim in front of the cylinder might be appropriate.
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy the fun of getting that old gun to shoot well.  I'm sure it will be worth the effort.  44 Man

[Blackhawker]

I looked up GPC and found parts.  Thanks!
I'd really like to keep this revolver in the .401 caliber, specifically for the 38-40. 

[gcrank1]

Hey 44, sounds like chambers that do that will be hard on brass; hopefully they are all about the same so the minimul sizing will work. That should be a good approach to resurrect this piece without breaking the bank.
You will end up with more money in this 'cheap' buy than you wanted, BH, but once it's shootin' good I dont think you will care. Even then it will be working and be a lot better tradin' stock than a paperweight.

[Blackhawker]

Well, it may become a return to Cabela's tomorrow.  They have a 30 day return policy on used guns.  I'll see what I can do but I'm not holding my breath either.  It's either that or it's gonna be sold or traded as a parts gun or project gun to anyone who might be intrigued enough.  I don't have the time or extra $$$ to put into it.

[gcrank1]

Another friend locally has returned a couple to Cabela's without a hitch. Hope all goes well for you on it. Hey, if they 'balk' just tell them you are on the biggest gun forums in the world and will tell everybody, if they are good or bad, how you are treated!

[Blackhawker]

Well, the story ends like this: 
I took the revolver back to Cabela's this morning and they took it back without a question or funny look or anything.  In exchange, they gave me all of my money back in cash, with the exception of $4.00 for the background check call. 

It was odd because with the exception of the obvious that is wrong with it, I really liked that revolver for the action, the size and weight and how it felt in hand.  As ugly as the grip looked it really was comfortable to the hold.  It was solid, had a great hammer draw and trigger pull.  If I ever come across another one (that hasn't been BOTCHED up by some lousy excuse for a gunsmith) I will certainaly buy it.  They seem like very nice revolvers.

[gcrank1]

Kudos to Cabela's....glad it worked out (sure wouldnt have been that 'easy' if it was a gun show find).

[Blackhawker]

Kudos to Cabela's....glad it worked out (sure wouldnt have been that 'easy' if it was a gun show find).

Thanks!
All I know is that this experience has given me a much better feeling about buying a used gun should I buy it at Cabela's.  It's almost a "risk free" purchase with them should you run into real troubles.  That's pretty nice to know.  I'll be searching for used guns there from now on, that's for sure!