38-55 Help

[jdbuckshot]

I have read, searched and looked all over this forum and it has taught me just how ignorant i am about guns, and reloading.

I purchased and H&R 38-55 BC several years ago and i absolutly love it.  how ever the factory winchester loads are not getting the job done. 

a friend reloads me some 255 grain bullets with 33 grains (i think) of Reloader 7.

These reloads shoot great and are very accurate.  how ever an unspent shell will not eject from the chamber.  I have read on here around lapping the chamber, polishing the chamber, and reaming the chamber.  but i do not feel confident that this is my problem as the factory reloads will eject just fine.

the brass on the reloads is scratched about the last 1/4" where it squeezes into the chamber. 

Do i need to resize my loaded shells?  or work on my chamber?


i know alot of this has been talked about,  but if you could give me some good advice on how to fix this problem that would be great.


Thanks, JD

[bikerbeans]

JD,
Couple of questions.  You said an unspent shell will not eject, I assume this means an unfired round.  Do the reloads chamber easily?  Also, is all the size lube/oil/grease cleaned off the reloaded brass?  Regarding the scratched brass, is it scratched in the chamber or by your friends sizing die?  Also, I believe there is some variation in the length/size of the 38-55 brass one can buy.  Is he reloading your spent brass or another brass?  The 38-55 crowd should be along soon for help once they finish their morning hunts.

BB

[quickdtoo]

Welcome to GBO JD! The no ejection part is likely caused by the tight chamber neck typical in H&R 38-55s, you'll either need shorter or thinner brass, or crimp with a Lee factory crimp die to eliminate the tight spot on the loaded rounds. I have two 38-55 Targets, have to do that with both of them with any bullet big enough to shoot well, I only use Starline long brass, Winchester brass won't chamber using the same bullet, it's just too thick, I have to neck turn it to make it work. 

Tim

[petemi]

I'm new to reloading and the .38-55, but what I've found, having had similar problems, the Winchester and cut down .30.40 Krag brass do that.  Starline doesn't so much.  I put a Lee Factory Crimp Die on them and they are all fine.  Your rifle, like mine is likely overbored and likes a fatter bullet. That's probably why the factory ammo didn't shoot well. I'd guess you buddy found that and it's why his hand loads are shooting.  It sounds like Factory Crimping, not the roll crimp, may do the trick for you.  It'll take the flare out of the case.  Good luck, let me know how you do.

Hi Tom,  Yeah, there's long and short .38-55 Brass, new and used and cut down from .30-40, but I have been able to make them all work.......with a lot of work, time and effort.  Now, I think I've got it figured out and it's pretty simple.

I almost put Tim's .38-55 barrel to work this morning.  A buck came out at 150 yards about 7:30 and was moving closer.  I slowly raised the rifle......and he was gone.  I don't know if he winded me or saw me move.  He had a rack, but in the low light against the trees I couldn't tell what he was.  I never even got the scope on him.

Thanksgiving has always been our lucky day.  Perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow.



Pete

[Blackhawker]

Although Tim is probably correct with your situation and most situations like this, there is the thought that maybe your chamber is getting dirty too.  I have both a 45-70 and 38-55 BC/TC with ejector barrels.  Both on occasion get stuck after firing.  Now it may be the chamber being tight but I typically see this happen after I've run 100 or more rounds through the barrel.  It happens about maybe 1 out of every 75 rounds if even that often.  How do I get them out???  I always keep a full length cleaning rod with me when I shoot....brass or metal, not wood....and just the lightest of a tap knocks it clear.

Chris

By the way, I use Winchester brass in my 38-55...which goes along with what Tim has mentioned as being a potential problem. 

[quickdtoo]

JD, see the ejector tune info in the FAQs, it won't solve the tight neck issue, only a factory style extractor will help that, but it will improve ejection force.

Tim

[jdbuckshot]

I'm almost positive that he used winchester brass to reload.  the starline brass is in two lenghts,  2.082  & 2.125.  Which is best?  i'm going to order some soon.

i started polishing the champer with a bore mop and some fine valve lapping compound,  i still have a ways to go,  i need to get some finer compound to really get it smooth and polished.  Would i be better off to rent the Reamer then polish slightly?

Thanks.

[quickdtoo]

Get the long.  http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17820

I wouldn't rent the reamer yet, I would order a Lee FCD tho if you don't have one. http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/8193

$4.95 flat rate shipping at Grafs. 

Tim

I only use Starline long brass

[Dead doc]

Had  that problem with my 38-55 target as well    Went to starline brass and problem solved   MY 45-70 barrel does that with some jacketed bullets    it is due to the length and the chamber throat       some bullets stick in the chamber  when not fired . I have had to trim down the 45-70 brass OR  use Hornady Leverlution brass   WHICH IS ALREADDY SHORTER    to solve the problem .   

[jdbuckshot]

Thank you guys for the help.  i can't wait to buy my own reloading equipment and get started.  these rifles are so much fun.   Probably going to order a 45-70 barrel for my BC


Thanks!!

[quickdtoo]

Had  that problem with my 38-55 target as well    Went to starline brass and problem solved   MY 45-70 barrel does that with some jacketed bullets    it is due to the length and the chamber throat       some bullets stick in the chamber  when not fired . I have had to trim down the 45-70 brass OR  use Hornady Leverlution brass   WHICH IS ALREADDY SHORTER    to solve the problem .   

I have six H&R 45-70s, none require short brass and I've never seen that problem reported here, all but one had a short throat tho, the SS Ultra Hunter, that's a common problem with most of them and the reason why I throat reamed 3 of them, see the FAQs. The common solution with longer, heavier bullets is to just seat them deeper and work the load up from start data.  All three of the 38-55s I've worked with, both of mine and the one I sold Pete, have reasonable length throats, I shoot 325gr Chey-Cast Snovers in one of em with no problems.

Tim

[gcrank1]

Mine likes the 'shorter brass'. The longer is for the way old original length chambers and when I tried a new stick of long Starline from a friend it did not want to seat, stopped about the extra length out.
I have not done a Cerrosafe chamber cast as I dont have any, and it is the best way to go. Maybe someday I will remember to take the rifle when I make the several hours drive to visit a friend who has some, because, well, inquiring minds just want to know........
Short of that, it seems to me that my chamber length (a 2006 TM?) is for the 'new' length version (the shorter Starline) but has the marginally too tight neck. Ive worked my way around it for cast bullets, but suggest you get that Lee die as recommended above, and all you have to do is slightly sqweeze his reloads (adjust & try bit by bit) until they chamber up and eject cleanly and you are good to go.
The 'too tight neck' is only a couple of thou' tight, so if you concentrate your 'polishing' there it will help the most.
BTW, make sure the brass case necks have been slightly chamfered inside and out, as all new brass should be prepped by the user, and the bullet does not need to be crimped in unless you use them in a repeater. Use just enough to roll any flare back around the bullet, but not much farther.

[cwlongshot]

Gcrank1,
 Its handi stuff to have if you tinker with firearms. ESP curios!!

Its gone up in $$ but I bought a half pound years ago and its still going strong!!

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=384/Product/CERROSAFE_reg__CHAMBER_CASTING_ALLOY

Just order yourself some!! You will be glad you did! It provides a wealth of information on your chamber and leade in your barrels and chambers. DEFINITELY a hand-loaders friend.

CW

[quickdtoo]

Track of the Wolf has the best price on Cerrosafe I've found, about half of what Brownell's sells it for, it was just $10 for a ½lb, but has gone up like everything else in the last few years, link is to sources and info on bore slugging and chamber casting from the FAQs. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,131280.msg1098488116.html#msg1098488116

[Dead doc]

TIM  I have owned one 45/70 Handi prior to this one and did not have this problem   I have  several others in numerous calibres and none of them have this problem,   in fact most have  throats way too long and bullets have to seated out to get the best accuracy. Tis 45 70 seems to be an anomaly .   But after I quired this particular one  ihad to have a ram rod to extract an unfired cartridge   until I started trimming brass   this was with both Hornady RNs and Speer FP 350 grain bullets  seated to lengths that function quiet wellin allmy other 45/70s ( 6 of them ) .   I have not tried 400s or above in this particular gun  moslty for that reason   300s are short enough to function fine w/o modification but the accuracy is not near as good as with 350   Ranch DOG 360 GC  bullets do not stick in the chamber  I guess due to a different ogive configuration  that is more tapered  . FWIW
     

[gcrank1]

This all certainly underscores the neccessity of really determining the length of brass that truely fits your chamber. SAAMI specs and factory chambers dont always match and to assume so causes more grief than many suspect.
Im still amazed at the number of reloaders I talk to that just take new unfired brass and load it up without inspecting and prepping it (it is just a starter kit). Im not anal about it, but visible flaws, max case length for your chamber, chamfering the case mouth edges, and at least making sure there is a primer hole are worth doing. Those are the basics, everything after that is fine tuning.

[quickdtoo]

Dead doc,

If it indeed does have a chamber that needs brass shorter than 2.1", it needs to go back to H&R for repair, but my guess is it's just like most other H&R 45-70 chambers and has a short throat which will require a shorter COL than 2.55" with most 350gr and bigger bullets, there are hundreds of old threads on this topic. The ogive shape of the bullet determines how long a cartridge can be loaded relative to the throat depth, that's the problem with the 405gr Rem and 400gr Speer and even most 350gr, their fat ogive makes a big difference compared to the smaller 300gr bullets. You can see the difference in the comparison below, L to R, 300gr Speer, 300gr Rem, 405gr Rem, 400gr Speer FN, 350gr Speer FN, 350gr Hornady RN and 350gr Hornady FP Interlock. The 350gr Speer would be a likely bigger bullet to use in the short throat as it has a better ogive shape.

Tim

[cwlongshot]

  Stupid question, but have you thoroughly cleaned this chamber?  BOTH the 45-70 and the 38-55 are lead bullet calibers. Lead can build up in the chambers, specifically the chamber mouths. To my mind, its rather unlikely that the chamber is too short as many reamers cut the rim at the same time as the end of the chamber is cut. SO if your chamber has got a rim cut the chamber is long enough...

I have had one of the 38-55s with the small throat, not too short, too small. Its a result of muddied waters as the 38-55 "aged". Its not supposed to be a .375 dia bore, but the chamber throat is cut as if it where. Open it with a reamer to .400 and the problems disappears as it what the factory should have done.

Tim has spoken about the 45-70 and too deep a rim cut resulting in lite FP strikes from an excessive head space. But that's also results in a slightly longer chamber.

I do not agree at all with the use of the lee crimp die, and never to fix or as a work around for this kind of an issue. If you take a piece of brass, full length re-size it. Trim it to proper length, deburr the mouth and insert it into the chamber. If it doesn't fit, double check you haven't made an error making the case. If you have not, RETURN IT TO MANUFACTURER It is not a SAMMI correct chamber.

CW

[gcrank1]

As said, the 38-55 has been 'evolving' for a long time. Hasnt the SAAMI spec for the 38-55 case length been the 2.08ish" rather than the 'longer' avaiable version for the late 19th and early 20th century chambers?
If not, I really have to wonder why that is the length brass we have been getting from Win.?
I havent any idea who provided the chamber reamers to H&R and the specs they used, but the last diagram I saw (In the Sgl. Shot Rifle Journal, ASSRA) shows the 38-55 as a long, steadily tapering case with no real neck, no throat as we think of today as a 'ball seat', just a 15degree(?) angle from chamber end into the rifling.
If you have enough chamber length to get that 'long' Starline brass all the way up there you may be limiting the dia. of the bullet you can use. You can neck turn the brass or back off the brass length and you can use a little (though very little) larger dia. bullet and still seat it out to the rifling if that is what your rifle likes for accurracy. Or, you can keep it back off the rifling and load it up to higher velocity and have that 'freebore' (like Weatherby) to reduce breech pressure.
FWIW, Im using fire-formed 30-30 brass and .379 and .380 dia. cast bullets. This brass is even shorter (so I get better load density too, Ha) and often is about the thinnest neck wall thickness, especially after fire-forming. Cheap too.
I 'may' get around to opening up the neck someday, but meanwhile, Ive worked around the 'problem' of my earlier H&R chamber.