Author Topic: Ticks  (Read 1102 times)

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Offline hornady

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Ticks
« on: October 29, 2010, 02:58:15 AM »
Last weekend I cut some firewood, the next day I found a tick on my arm, I am not new to the tick deal. I had one that I was treated for the target in 96, and had a few in between, but this little bugger got me good. I went to my family doctor; he could not get the head out, he drew blood, and made me an appointment with a Surgeon.
So yesterday I spent most of the day at the surgeons office getting the head cut out and he said they were sending it out for a biopsy, I also need to go back in two weeks for another blood test. So next time in the woods, I will remember the bug spray. This is more of a warning than anything else, this seems to be  a bad year Ticks.   

Offline Steelbanger

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 03:14:51 AM »
I hear you Hornady.

Ticks in Northumberland County are bad too. I shot a deer last week that was loaded with them, poor thing. I found ticks on my clothing too but none embedded in me. Pulled a few off my beagle recently but he has the Lyme injection which should make him safe. In my entire lifetime I had only seen ONE tick until recent years when they are prevalent everywhere. Just wondering now if whether something that ate ticks is missing from our environment hence the explosion in their numbers.
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
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Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 03:35:02 AM »
Back in 96 when I tested positive for Lymes, I think I took pills for 10 or 15 days and it cleared up, but a guy I worked with, he never got the target, and it messed him up pretty bad, last I heard he was still in bad shape. Back then they were just coming out with the vaccine for dogs, and the Doctor I had then said they should come up with one for humans but it would be several years.
I did not keep up with it, did they ever come up with a Human vaccine for Lymes.

Offline Steelbanger

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 04:29:30 AM »
I have never heard of Lyme vaccinations for we humans. Only dogs. Priorities I suppose.

I made a tool to pull ticks off the dog. I used a hollow plastic tube, the body of a screw-apart ball pen. With a tiny 3 sided file I filed a groove on the inside of the tube which creates a tapering opening on the outside of the tube. When I find a tick I get the tube and slide it onto the tick, from the rear, until the head area is in the narrow end of the groove. Now I pull the tube straight outward until the tick releases. I only used it twice now but both ticks came out in one piece, head included.

"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
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Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 05:11:36 AM »
Looks like you have a winner there, I had too put the last of my Beagles down last month, he was almost 15 years old, and I will not be getting any more this late in life. It will seem strange not having a Beagle anymore, I have had at least one my whole life. But just getting too old and crippled up to take on another one.
Guys that don’t run gun dogs just don’t know what they are missing, or how attached you get to them.

Offline Steelbanger

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 05:36:45 AM »
Hornady,

My beagle is a dual purpose dog. House pet year round and rabbit machine in Dec., Jan. & Feb. This dog will crawl into anything that could hold a rabbit, become embedded with thorns and run till he drops. His major problem is that he runs an occasional deer.

I lost my wife to cancer last November and this was really her dog. I wanted to get a shock collar trainer to stop him from running deer but my wife told me that if the dog has to wear a collar like that, so would I. It still gives me a laugh whenever I think of that statement she made. She loved to hear him bawl and I would sometimes call home when the chase was close so that she could enjoy him chasing. I also have to give him credit for pulling me through this most difficult year of my life. I believe that my wife knew I would be alone and saw to it that I would have company to talk to and care for.

I am also slowing down as I just turned 70 and have been retired since 2004. It isn't fun looking for things you just had in your hands a minute ago, is it?
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
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Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 06:51:47 AM »
Very sorry to hear of your loss.
Yes we had a double duty dog about 20 years ago; he was the father of the one I just lost. Pretty good hunter, I stopped hunting him for basically the same reason, not the Deer, but I knew what it would do to the wife if he didn’t come home from a hunt with me.
Up until I retired I always tried to work second shift so I would have a couple hours in the mornings to run dogs.
It may be because I am getting older, but this last one hit me hard, I can’t say he was the best dog I ever owned, but he will be missed the most, some dogs just have that personality where everything just clicks.
He too was one of those dogs, we would come back from him running rabbits, and his ears and tail would be bloody, he loved to hunt, the last few years we went out, I didn’t even carry a gun, I just loved watching him run.

Online DDZ

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 02:49:42 PM »
Ticks do seem to be bad this year especially this fall. 13 years ago I was diagnosed with lyme, after four months of trying to find out what was wrong with me. I must have been to 5 different specialists and other doctors. Not one of them suggested Lyme disease. One doctor even told me that it was mental and I needed to see a neurologist. I was treated for a year with antibiotics including intravenous antibiotics. Plus a few more times over the 13 years. I have not gotten completely rid of it but have learned to control it with diet (no sugar) and exercise. I still do get symptoms, but not near as severe.
I never remembered seeing a bulls eye rash, nor remember seeing a tick attached, but they can get to places where you won't see them. If you have an attached tick, especially a deer tick I would suggest sending the tick to a lab that can test it for the lyme bacteria. If you suspect you may have lyme disease get to a lyme literate doctor. There are many doctors that don't have a clue how to treat it. I found out by talking to my family doctor, that I know more about lyme disease then he does, and he is considered a good doctor.
If lyme is treated early in its infection it is easy to get rid of. If you see the tick and a bulls eye rash appears, I would get to a doctor that would administer at least a month of antibiotics. There have been cases where a two week dose of antibiotics were given at the early stage, and the patient felt fine for a while. Then the symptoms returned later, only much worse. If not treated until in its second or third stage, it can be really hard to get rid of. It is hard to diagnose. It is more of a clinical diagnosis then by testing. The testing for lyme is not always conclusive. It can give false positives and false negatives.
Not all ticks transmit the lyme bacteria. Mainly the black legged tick (deer tick) and the western black legged tick. The lone star tick and common dog tick are not known to transmit the lyme bacteria, but can carry other diseases.
The best way to ensure you won't get lyme disease is to not get bit by a deer tick. When hunting, I now duct tape my pant legs to my boots and spray my clothing with Repel Permanone. Permanone is a Permethrin based spray that is to be used on clothing only. It does not repel ticks it kills them, and the stuff works. It will last on clothing for a couple weeks.
I also sit on the ground as little as possible. Its the reason I don't do much spring gobbler hunting anymore. When the deer ticks hatch out and are in the nymph stage around May. They can be carrying the lyme bacteria, and are as small as a pin head. So just imagine trying to find one of them dug into your crotch or else where. When a tick attaches to you it secretes a numbing saliva so its bite will go undetected. 
Where I live deer ticks are not that numerous, but where I bear hunt up north they are very numerous, and I would not be hunting without duct tape and permanone. No matter what you have heard about lyme disease, trust me you do not want it.
If you have to remove a tick there are very small tweezers made for that purpose. What ever you do, do not squeeze its body when removing it. This could transmit the bacteria into you, that the tick is carrying in its gut.

In an answer to hornady's post about a vaccine for humans. The FDA did approve of a lyme vaccine in 1998. It was pulled from the market and discontinued by the manufacture in 2002 because of poor sales. There was wide spread fear that it could cause arthritis and other problems. There were other issues with it that I had read about, but can't remember what they were now. So basically it didn't work or it caused other complications. If it did work I'm sure it would have continued to be developed and sold. If not by the original manufacturer, then by someone else.     
               
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline BCB

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2010, 02:27:47 AM »
Last weekend I cut some firewood, the next day I found a tick on my arm, I am not new to the tick deal. I had one that I was treated for the target in 96, and had a few in between, but this little bugger got me good. I went to my family doctor; he could not get the head out, he drew blood, and made me an appointment with a Surgeon.
So yesterday I spent most of the day at the surgeons office getting the head cut out and he said they were sending it out for a biopsy, I also need to go back in two weeks for another blood test. So next time in the woods, I will remember the bug spray. This is more of a warning than anything else, this seems to be  a bad year Ticks.    


I am somewhat surprised your family doctor could not remove the head of that tick and he needed the assistance of a surgeon!...

What are they going to biopsy?  A simply microscope or viewing 'scope could help to observe the mouthparts of the tick.  Or are they looking for the spirochete that causes Lyme disease?...

And, it is highly unlikely that the blood assay to check for the spirochete or the antibodies your body produces would even be found at this early stage of the infection, if indeed you did get a "bad" tick.  The assay test for Lymes disease is at best iffy.  Many false positives and the test is open to interpretation by whomever looks at it or makes the determination.  The test can be performed two times and the results can be different.  I am exposed to ticks much of the time with my job, and my health insurance or workman's comp. will not cover the test--expensive and mostly inaccurate...

Although I know that Lyme's Disease certainly does exist, I think it is fairly uncommon.  I would say that with my job, and the others that do the same job that I do, there has probably been no less than a hundred or so bites in the past couple of years--no one appears to have Lyme's Disease.  Many or most of the ticks were deer ticks as they can be identified with a minimal magnifying glass--some wood ticks and brown ticks...

Not doubting your doctor's decisions, but some overreact for sure.  Several years ago, I was going through a regiment of chemo and I got 2 tick bites druing the 18 weeks of treatment.  The oncologist did give me 3 pills to take for 3 consecutive days as my immune system was almost nonexistant.  I don't know what the pills were, as my mind was not too good back then, but I don't have Lyme's Disease--but maybe the 2 ticks weren't carriers...

Good-luck with your assays, but I would ask for a very good explaination and the percentage of correct accuracy of the tests from the doctor...

BCB

Online DDZ

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2010, 03:28:19 AM »
BCB, I disagree with your statement about Lyme disease being uncommon. Pa is the largest reporting state for Lyme disease. In 2008 the Centers for disease control and prevention (CDC) reported more than 3000 cases. In 2009 that number more than doubled. The CDC estimates that only 1 in 10 cases are actually reported so Pa had probably around 8,000 people with lyme disease in Pa. in 09. If you add the undiagnosed cases to the unreported cases this number would be much higher. Because you never contacted lyme disease from the attached ticks you had, means you have been lucky, not that it means lyme is uncommon. I guess it all depends on what your definition of uncommon is. Lyme disease is very prevalent in Pa., and the cases reported have increased each of the last five years. 
Doctors do not treat lyme the way it should be treated because of insurance companies. Insurance companies hire people that didn't make it in the medical field, and these people dictate the way lyme disease is treated. That is the reason many doctors say that two weeks of antibiotics are good enough. This is nothing but a lie. there have been lyme literate doctors forced out of business by insurance companies because of their treatment for their lyme disease patients. Again the majority of regular general doctors don't know crap about Lyme or how it should be treated. So don't believe everything you hear just because it comes from a doctor. In fact it was my own father that suggested I get a lyme disease test done when I was trying to find out what was wrong we me. Not one of the many specialists or regular doctors even mentioned lyme disease. If I had not got to a lyme literate doctor and just left any doctor treat me, I would now be in very bad shape or even dead.
         
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline BCB

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2010, 04:06:32 AM »
DDZ,

I agree that the usage of the word “uncommon” may not have been correct on my part…

I think what might be “uncommon” is a correct diagnosis.  As I mentioned, the assay is very iffy and I think that is why insurance companies won’t pay for it.  It is expensive also…

There must be something to the reason that insurance companies don’t pay for it and I don’t think it is at the suggestion of some “medical dropout”.  Hell, insurance companies pay for “back problems” and there isn't any way some of the people I know have a back problem—a lazy problem would be a better diagnosis…

I am uncertain that I was lucky through all of my tick attacks.  It is possible that some people are more prevalent to acquire the disease than others.  I dealt with cancer and not everyone gets that ailment. Thank whomever for that.  But the diagnosis for that disease is very accurate and insurance companies step in on that…

The insurance company is going to pay for the person who started this thread for the initial appointment with the family doctor, and then the surgeon, then the biopsy and possible the treatment, whatever that might be, if the doctor can apply the proper code to convince the insurance company to pay.  I say all of this in speculation as I really don’t know if the person who started this thread has health insurance…

A person at the place I work was “diagnosed” with Lyme’s Disease.  I believe he took tetracycline for a year.  The dang antibiotic probably caused him as much trouble as the disease—at least in the short term.  And, did he actually have Lyme’s Disease.  He thought he did.  Old age caused many of the symptoms of Lyme’s Disease.  We all get old, if we are “lucky”?...

Now that I think about it, hell, I might have Lyme’s Disease also.  I wonder if I can get disability for it?  Workman’s Comp says no.  Wait, maybe I have a back problem—that will work…

Yep, Lyme Disease does exist, but I still remain skeptical as to whether the vast majority of diagnoses are correct.  If the CDC believes that only 10% of the cases are reported, there must be bunches of people out there running around “under the weather” for reasons unknown…

It is a devastating disease if acquired—this I do know—but not first hand…

Good-luck to all who run into those pesky deer ticks…

BCB

Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 12:08:14 PM »
I will be seeing my family doctor on November 11th, as the saying goes this was not my first time at the rodeo. Over the years of working in the woods, hunting, and fishing I have had several encounters with ticks, this one got me in the back of my upper arm, as too why my family doctor would not remove the head, it may be as simple as a liability issue, the head was very deep. In 96 I was lucky in that unlike many other ticks I have removed the one in 96 with in 5 days, I had a very prominent target. And was started on the medicine right away.
As to the testing of my blood and biopsy of the tick head, your guess is as good as mine as to why they did this, in 96 the target was visible, this is day 6 and no target, but from what the Doctor told me, just because you don’t get the target, doesn’t mean you will not get Lymes.
A couple thing I know for sure, Lymes is nothing to play around with, and I will do what the Doctor says.

Offline BCB

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 01:17:12 PM »
hornady,

The person that I previously mentioned that went with the antibiotic treatment for a year, I don’t think he had the characteristic Bullseye/target reddening around the bite.  Although, he may have had other bites that he never noticed…

And, you should do what your doctor recommends.  It certainly can’t hurt, or for the most part, it probably won’t hurt.  The ounce of prevention thing…

Good-luck…BCB

Online DDZ

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 12:56:52 AM »
Hornady, that is correct. Only 40% of people that get, or have lyme disease ever remember seeing or having a bullseye rash.
The bacteria reacts differently in people. Also there are many different strains of the bacteria.
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Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »
Well so far so good, I got a report back from the Doctor today, I have no idea what all this means there were 10 KD test from the blood test, starting with 18 KD to 93 KD with a nonreactive be hind them. Followed by Lyme lgm western blot Negative, I go back in for another test on the 11th. And hopefully that will be the end of it.

Offline BCB

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 02:22:10 PM »
hornady,

The IgM’s (and IgG’s) you mention are antibodies to an invader of the human body—that is the spirochete Borrelia.  This is the causative agent of Lyme’s Disease…

It the IgM and the IgG antibodies are present, then the next step is the Western Blot test…

This test looks for specific parts of the bacterium (spirochete) that is present if Lyme Disease is indicated…

The KD numbers you mention are specific parts of the bacterium that they are looking for…

One can begin to see the extreme amount of accuracy that is required to find a very small portion of the spirochete.  A microscopic critter and then divide it up even more into its collective parts.  Think about it.  Therefore, the expensiveness of the tests…

I am surprised the Western Blot test was performed before a positive discovery of the IgM and the IgG antibody…

This is where the problems come in with insurance companies.  Heck, lets just give everybody a Western Blot test!!!!!!...

Then to complicate the issue, the test results are open to interpretation—a human factor thrown into the mix!  That is probably the weakest link in the determination of Lyme’s Disease…

Doctor’s certainly want to error on the “save the patient” side of the decision.  Prescribe all of the tests and if they are all negative—oh well, I was looking out for the patient—all well and good for the patient, but not so good for the insurance companies.  They play the odds as we all do everyday of our lives…

Now you will go back for follow-up tests and that adds to the expense…

I am not saying these tests should never be done, but I think that there should be 95% positive indications before the Western Blot test is indicated and then re-indicated (is that a word?)…

It appears that since you don’t have any of the KD factors positive, you may be a-O.K.  BUT, I certainly ain’t a doctor and I don’t pretend to be.  I do have a degree in microbiology and a 6-month internship would have given me the Medical Technology degree.  My wife works in a hospital lab and she deals with these types of ordeals every day…

Good-luck with your tests and I sure hope you don’t have the “kootie” that cause Lyme’s.  But if caught early, there are several antibiotics that have proven to be effective…

Good-luck again,

BCB

Offline hornady

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Re: Ticks
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 04:54:17 PM »
BCB thanks for the explanation, I don’t know if it is the liability or just the fact its not there money and time, most people I think are like me, not real knowledgeable about the test they are sent in for.
Last year the VA sent me through a battery of test, god only knows what that cost, but then only by accident did they come up with an accurate diagnosis. MD now how many people ever heard of a guy in his 60s with MD, come to find out, I think they said there are 13 forms of it, and oh yes  by the way no cure for. So we spend all this money and time, and they tell me I have a disease that may or may not kill me, but most likely will put me in a wheel chair at some point, and there is no cure or treatment for. But I still get letters to come back for follow up test and visits for something they can do nothing for.