Author Topic: Plated bullets? (Read 1418 times)

coyotejoe · « **on:** October 30, 2010, 05:20:31 AM »

I'm about sick of scrubbing lead out of my revolver bores. In my .357 I've gone almost exclusively to jacketed bullets but for my .44 mag jacketed slugs are rather expensive. The plated bullets by Berry's or Ranier seem like a good way to avoid the leaded bore syndrome without spending an arm and a leg. I generally run high end .44 Special loads, a 240 grain at around 1200 fps and I don't hunt with them so terminal performance is no concern. Do you guys thing a plated 240 grain will be accurate at 1200 fps?

gray-wolf · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2010, 06:33:07 AM »

That is a hard question to answer with a " Yes I think."
I'm sure you will get many answers from people that will tell you there success stories
and that may help you or not help you.
There are many ways to over come leading in a revolver. Without knowing what you have tried it's hard to try and help.
Size of the cylinder throats, bore Diameter, powder, hardness of your bullet, bullet speed, bullet lube, shooting lead over copper, for just a few.
Many things attribute to barrel leading. But I guess that's not what you asked, just thought I would mention it.
Plated bullets may help, but again it depends on what you put in the mix.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2010, 07:29:36 AM »

I've shot and reloaded for centerfire revolvers for 40+ years and I've never yet seen one that didn't lead at least a little with any lead bullet. I've tried Linotype, wheel weights, pure lead and about any combination there of. I've tried full magnum loads and loads that barely poop the bullet out the barrel. Gas checks are the best solution but I don't enjoy casting bullets and to buy precast gas check bullets they often cost more than jacketed. In the Ruger flat top .44 mag I'm now shooting, Laser Cast 240 over 6 grains of Trail Boss for about 850 fps is very accurate and only lead a little but soop them up to 1200 fps and they lead badly. I tried fire lapping the Ruger and it made no noticeable difference in anything at all, which matches my past experience with fire lapping other guns.

Catfish · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2010, 09:18:06 AM »

The plated bullets work well at low velocitys, but not at full power loads. If your wanting full house loads get jacketed bullets. If you want full house loads with lead bullets get Lead Head bullets. I`ve pushed them to 2,700 fps without leading, but they will cost you more than jacketed bullets.

mdi · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2010, 10:17:47 AM »

I'm not experienced with plated bullets because I don't get much leading in my guns (2 autos, 3 revolvers, 1 Contender). What I did was slug the barrels and chamber throats and size accordingly. I only cast Wheel Weight alloy air cooled. If you buy cast bullets, Beartooth Bullets, and others I'm sure, offers different diameters of cast bullets so you can uy bullets .002" over groove diameter.

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2010, 10:30:39 AM »

I've been shooting cast bullets since 1971, and of course I have had my share of leading. It is a matter of how much money do you want to save. About 30 years ago I started using my own recipe of bullet lube, and that put a huge chunk of leading into retirement. They just don't lead much with my bullet lube, but then again, I quit loading them so hot. Like someone else, I use wheel weights and always have. On the other hand due to my past profession, I have shot in excess of 1,000 rounds per day at times in training, and have never experienced some of the other mythical problems sometimes talked about such as top strap cutting on revolvers. Cleaning out small amounts of leading to me is just not that big of a deal.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2010, 01:47:35 PM »

The Ruger flat top I'm shooting slugs .430" groove diameter. The chamber throats run .431" and the laser Cast 240 SWC's I've been shooting run .432-.433". It takes a mallet to drive one through the chamber throat. Those numbers "should" work fine and it does shoot very accurately with 6 grains of Trail Boss at about 850 fps with only a little lead fouling. Groups open up a bit when I drive them up to 1200 fps, say 2" to 2 1/2" at 25 yards. But after 10 or 12 shots accuracy goes to pot and I have a mess to scrub out of the bore. I scrub with Hoppes #9 and a bronze brush, let it sit a while before patching dry, then go to the Lewis Lead Remover to get most of it out, then back to the brush and Hoppes to finish. It is a PITA for just a dozen rounds.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2010, 04:32:04 PM »

There are times I get some leading when I try something knew in my pistols.
What helps me get the lead out ( and this works very, very well ) is the Copper scrubby pad called Chor boy.
It must be chore boy--they are all copper DO NOT USE COPPER PLATED STEEL. CHOR BOY IS ALL COPPER AND WILL NOT HURT YOUR BORE. I find it at the supper market and they are not to expensive for two pads.
Cut a small patch out of a pad and wrap it around an old bore brush or an old mop. Be generous cover it well.
Dip in the bore cleaner and 7 or 8 strokes will have the lead out. There is no need for you to struggle with it.
Some times I will do 4 or 5 stokes down the bore while I am shooting if I have a lead problem.
You can do it so fast it wont even interrupt your shooting. Trust me on the Chor boy--it works.
Just trying to be a little help.

Sam

Dee · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2010, 04:41:15 PM »

Good tip gw.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2010, 04:43:56 PM »

I've had excellent results with plated bullets in 9mm, .38 Super, .357 magnum and .45 Colt (carbine). In the Super I push them to about 1,275 fps with excellent results. The other calibers have been under 1,200 fps, but always clean shooting and as accurate as any cast bullet.
Most of my plated bullets have been Rainiers, they claim a max speed limit of 1,500 fps, and optimum accuracy at 1,200 or under.
I still shoot a few lead .357 bullets (Hornady swaged), but for the most part I'm done scrubbing lead.

Dee · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2010, 05:01:07 PM »

HAMMERHEAD, I would have to agree. I have shot a ton of the Raniers in 45acp, and they always shoot clean. They do however leave a lot of copper in the barrel but is easier removed than jacketed copper.

mbopp · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2010, 06:28:12 PM »

I didn't have much luck developing an accurate load with Berrys 140gr and 158gr 357 bullets. But they shoot good in reduced loads in my 357 Herrett.
I was looking for a +P load in my M-19 and had some 148 Berrys DEWCs. 6.0gr of Unique in 357 cases is the most accurate load, cast, plated, or jacketed that I've found.
If you can't find "Chore Boy" copper scrubbers take a magnet to the store with you. You want a non-magnetic copper scrubber, not a copper-plated steel one.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2010, 01:26:11 AM »

I own well over 50 handguns. Yes one or two have had leading problems but were easy fixes to cure. I guess i have to ask what you consider a leading problem. A little lead in your barrel doesnt hurt a thing unless it effects accuracy. I can about guarantee you that if you have a leading problem your going to have a copper fouling problem too. For the most part all i shoot is lead and for the most part i rarely clean the barrel on a sixgun. Ive shot guns well over a 1000 times with lead bullets without a bit of trouble. If the gun was built right or if not corrected to be right you should be able to shoot cast bullets about forever without getting a lead build up that will effect accuracy. that is taking into account you need to use a good bullet with a good lube that is sized properly for the gun and cast out of an appropriate alloy for the velocity your using. But the main thing is to first get the gun right. A good gun will give you alot of latitude in what you use for cast bullets but a bad gun will fight you all the way and changing alloys or size or lubes to get it to overcome those problems is like putting a bandaid on a cut artery. there isnt a single gun in my safe that needs lead cleaned out of it. When i run into it i either fix the problem or if its a problem that cant be fixed for a reasonable ammount of money i get rid of it.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2010, 03:56:24 AM »

Sometimes Lloyd Smale and I agree to disagree--but this time I MUST agree.
He summed it up perfectly. Nice job MR. Smale

GW

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2010, 05:00:34 AM »

Well experiences do vary and I have never yet seen a revolver that doesn't lead if shot with lead bullets.
I do appreciate the tips on removing lead, etc.
But if we could get this back on track, I'd still like to hear of peoples experience with plated bullets.

the jigger · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2010, 09:46:07 AM »

I have used Berry's and Rainier plated bullets in 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP.
I prefer the Rainier. They seem to be a bit harder. I do not shoot "HOT"
loads in any of my semi-autos. I clean for copper every time I clean.
If you don't hotrod plated bullets you should have few problems.
In my experience cleaning for copper is much easier than cleaning for lead.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

coyotejoe · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2010, 06:47:12 AM »

I tried a few yesterday, Berrys 240 hp's in magnum brass over AA-9. My Hornady book lists a max load of 21.3 grains so I loaded up ten each of 19, 20 and 21 grains. I fired five of the 19.0 grain loads and got a 2 1/2" group at 25 yards. But it showed signs of excessive pressure, very flat primers and slightly sticky extraction even though the load was under max by 2.3 grains. I brought the rest home and pulled bullets.
It seems to me pressures were considerably higher than I have seen with jacketed or hard cast bullets over the same powder charge. Pressure may be the limiting factor more than accuracy.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2010, 05:37:18 AM »

I tried a few more loads yesterday. I reduced the AA-9 load to 18.0 grains and fired cases fell out of the chambers, this time I remembered to take the ProChrono and velocity for 6 rounds was 1166fps and a 2 1/4" group at 25 yards. 10 grains of Unique went 1051 fps and 6 grouped in 2 1/2".
Now here's a strange one, 10 rounds over 6.0 grains Trail Boss in .44 special brass grouped right at 2" but velocity was only 681 fps. That same load with the 240 laser Cast SWC goes 830 fps. Both were loaded to the same OAL. Because of the difference in bullet shape the plated bullets may have been seated a hair more shallow but only a hair and I can't imagine that would account for a velocity difference of 149 fps.
These bullets seem to be accurate enough, my worst group so far was 2 1/2". They do seem to have some strange quirks, unexpectedly high pressure with the low end magnum loads and inexplicably low velocity with the .44 special Trail Boss load, but they do avoid the leading issue which was my main reason for trying them in the first place.

dickttx · « **Reply #18 on:** November 11, 2010, 04:35:15 AM »

From those who have used both, what exactly is the purpose of the plated bullets?
Is the plating supposed to replace the lube? Do you get any leading at all with the plated?
With the Berry's and Ranier do you use the regular lead bullet tables?

coyotejoe · « **Reply #19 on:** November 11, 2010, 08:02:32 AM »

Both Berrys and Rainier's websites suggest useing lead bullet data. I've never seen any leading from plated bullets in .38 special, .45 ACP or .30 carbine loads nor have I seen any thus far in .44 mag. They both recommend keeping velocites below or "not much over" 1200 fps but I loaded the .30 carbine up to full speed, 1800-1900 fps with no problems and accuracy equal to jacketed bullets.

3leggedturtle · « **Reply #20 on:** November 11, 2010, 11:09:04 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on November 11, 2010, 08:02:32 AM

Both Berrys and Rainier's websites suggest useing lead bullet data. I've never seen any leading from plated bullets in .38 special, .45 ACP or .30 carbine loads nor have I seen any thus far in .44 mag. They both recommend keeping velocites below or "not much over" 1200 fps but I loaded the .30 carbine up to full speed, 1800-1900 fps with no problems and accuracy equal to jacketed bullets.

Did you recover any of the 30carb bullets. Do they expand any?Have you tried them in newspaper or water jugs?

coyotejoe · « **Reply #21 on:** November 11, 2010, 02:05:46 PM »

Nope, sorry. They were FMJ roundnoses and I never fired them at anything but paper targets.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #22 on:** November 11, 2010, 02:52:28 PM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on November 11, 2010, 08:02:32 AM

Both Berrys and Rainier's websites suggest useing lead bullet data. I've never seen any leading from plated bullets in .38 special, .45 ACP or .30 carbine loads nor have I seen any thus far in .44 mag. They both recommend keeping velocites below or "not much over" 1200 fps but I loaded the .30 carbine up to full speed, 1800-1900 fps with no problems and accuracy equal to jacketed bullets.

were the 30 cal bullets for rifle or pistol
i considered loading the raineer 32s&w slugs for my moms 32
into a 30-30......for a possum vaporisor

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2010, 02:53:58 AM »

The 110 grain roundnose fmj were expressly for the .30 carbine and had a thicker plating than their handgun bullets. They could, of course, be loaded into anything which takes a .308" bullet but I have no idea how they would work in a 30/30.

wncchester · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2010, 04:45:50 AM »

Lloyd: "...taking into account you need to use a good bullet with a good lube that is sized properly for the gun and cast out of an appropriate alloy for the velocity your using[/u]."

That's the core of it, saves a lot of typing to just copy it.

Gas checks can help but not as much as some seem to think. Low velocity bullets are sensitive to sizing diameter but I've found that hot loads will obturate to bore diameter no matter how they are sized. I routinely run speeds to 1,500 fps in my .357 and .44 with little or no leading at all using inexpensive 50:50 Alox/beeswax lube on hard cast lead-wheel weight-tin alloy bullets. WW by itself, without a bit of tin, tends to lead somewhat more than it should.

Copper plating was first done to reduce corrosion of bullets kept in police acid tanned leather belt loops. Still about all it's good for, IMHO. The plating is much too thin and the bullets are much too soft to expect jacketed performance outta them.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #25 on:** November 13, 2010, 05:44:20 AM »

As I said earlier, I don't cast my own. I have the equippment from years ago but I never did enjoy the process and I now think that being retired means I don't have to do things I don't enjoy.

I have purchased bullets from several online sites, the most recent being Oregon Trails laser Cast which are "guarenteed not to lead". They lead a little at 800 fps and a lot at 1200 fps from .44 special or magnum brass. My chamber throats are .001" over groove diameter and the Laser Cast 240 SWC's are .001" larger than the throats, but they still lead the bore. Now maybe some of the high dollar custom cast bullets might solve the problem but if they cost twice as much as jacketed bullets I don't see the point.
Thus I have been trying out some plated slugs from Berrys. So far I see that they don't behave like either hard cast or jacketed bullets. I think that because the core is dead soft lead and the plating is not thick enough to contain the core they may "slug up" in the throat and cause excessive pressure with the hot .44 special data. That is my guess at an explaination, for sure I see signs of pressure with loads that showed no pressure signs with either the hard cast or jacketed bullets. But that can be worked around by simply reducing loads a bit. The good news is I have now fired about 50 with various loads and have seen not a trace of leading, even from those loads which showed pressure signs.

hornady · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2010, 05:49:57 AM »

This months Handloader has an article about plated bullets, The article states that both Berry and Rainier are made in the same way, the author found minor defects in both, he also stated that the core lead used was about the consistency of W/W. I was suspicious of this statement; I do not have the Rainier Bullets but did my own test on some Berry.
Not real scientific, but I filed the nose off a couple, and tested them with my Saeco tester, the ones I tested, did test at about w/w hardness.
The author stated that after 200 rounds, shot under 1200 fps he found no leading or copper fowling.
He also stated the accuracy with both was below Jacketed or properly sized cast bullets.
But also felt for there intended purpose cheap plinking, for those that do not want to take on casting, they are a very good option.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2010, 06:30:26 AM »

That's surprising, I had the impression the core was very soft. I do know that not all plated bullets are the same. I've cut up a few and I retrieve some fired bullets to melt down and re-cast as balls for muzzleloaders. I have seen that the Rainier's I used in .45 ACP have a thinner plating than the .30 carbine bullets from Berry's. The 350 grain .458" bullets I got for my .45/70 also seem to have a heavier platting but it's not something I can actually measure very easily.
Did that test make mention of the odd differences I encountered in pressure and velocity? With the warmer loads I saw higher pressure than with hard cast and with the Trail Boss load I got sub-standard velocity compared to the same load with the Laser Cast.
I might also mention that the Laser Cast bullets have a beveled base which I've heard can also contribute to lead fouling but it does make them easy to seat in the case without extreme belling.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #28 on:** November 16, 2010, 12:50:43 PM »

Quote

He also stated the accuracy with both was below Jacketed or properly sized cast bullets.
But also felt for there intended purpose cheap plinking, for those that do not want to take on casting, they are a very good option.

What did you expect to hear from Hornady?

I recently bought a Sig P220 SSS .45acp, and both Berry's 185 grain and Rainier's 200 grain plated SWC's have equaled the Hornady 200 grain match jacketed SWC for 25 yard accuracy at 2", about as tight as I'm able to test.
The Hornady 200 JSWC is a fine bullet though, hornady, well done.