Author Topic: Depressing unemployment stats. (Read 639 times)

powderman · « **on:** December 04, 2010, 05:33:30 PM »

Quote

http://www.prisonplanet.com/jobless-recovery-25-unemployment-statistics-that-are-almost-too-depressing-to-read.html

Worse than we are being told. POWDERMAN.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2010, 06:13:24 PM »

Its okay. The gooberment will borrow more money to pay benefits

. Our gooberment in their race to create global economy, the precursor to NWO, one world gooberment, has obliterated our tax base. Now they borrow money to keep the false image of America being a rich nation. china and india are reaping the benefits, let them finance the global economy. Robinson Crusoe pays Friday to do his work, pretty soon Friday has the money, and R Crusoe having no means to replace it goes broke. Well The USA is Robinson Crusoe in this case. Without our manufacturing supplying jobs our tax base is gone. No jobs, no housing, no schools, etc,etc. How long before double digit inflation is the norm?? Best be buying staples in quantity if ya can afford it.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2010, 03:12:05 AM »

Why the fetish about manufacturing? Aren't there other ways to make a living? We've got farming, mining, construction, technology, design, banking, science, engineering, transportation and distribution, and many other things. We gain a lot by not having manufacturing here:
1) Modern factories are highly automated and employ relatively few people compared to the factories of a generation ago.
2) The other countries are procuring the raw materials, thus not draining US supplies and natural resources
3) Most factory jobs are grunt work jobs with no future (unless there are powerful unions artificially influencing that, in which case they are grunt level jobs with spectacular benefits. Unfortunately this has been discovered not to work because the system goes broke after a while.)
4) Companies that deal in manufactured goods do not have to worry about all of the burdensome regulations here in the US. Somebody else worries about that.
5) Companies based in energy averse states like California don't have to worry about whether they can get enough energy to power their factories. The Chinese are building plenty of power plants, mostly coal fired.

Tell me what the disadvantages are to losing manufacturing in the US. Are we looking to the past of manufacturing through rose colored glasses? I grew up where there were a few factories and the jobs were not desirable at all. Most of the jobs were dangerous. Everyone I knew that worked at a factory saw it about the same way we see fast food jobs today, as something temporary that needed to be bettered.

Take California, for instance. They don't have much manufacturing any more because of the laws there. But people like living near the coast, so they do what they need to do to stay there in that most benign of climates. Consequently there are literally millions of family businesses and non-chain businesses in California. There's a diversity of commerce there that I do not see in most other places in this country. Today, instead of working at the Boeing plant or the ammo plant, or the Fender guitar plant, they are working for small businesses of all kinds. The problems in California are not due to a lack of enterprise on the part of the people of California. It is due to poor government. Meanwhile states like Tennessee and Arizona benefit from the losses elsewhere in the US and do quite nicely compared to what they were doing 20 or 30 years ago.

Just because we can't point to a few big factories doesn't mean that there aren't businesses out there.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2010, 03:13:59 AM »

But to put another twist on the argument, the US is one of the world's leading manufacturing countries, and is one of the world's top exporters of goods. #2 or #3, I believe.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2010, 12:58:03 PM »

"Fetish about manufacturing" are you kidding? The US had long been a leader in manufacturing of quality tools and goods. An economy can only support a certain amount of service jobs like farming, banking, technology, design and the others that you listed. You obviously have never seen the inside of a modern american factory if you think the jobs are "unsafe grunt jobs".
Are you really that clueless that you think it is a good thing that our jobs are going to mexico and china?

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:19:05 PM »

Yahoo news released that china is now the top builder of skyscrapers. I wonder if that money came from service industries or their new found manufacturing wealth?? Look for india to follow. I have worked some service jobs when i was younger. After military service I worked construction as a hod carrier, gandy dancer, and steel fabricator. You may view all of those jobs and jobs like them as dead end, and thats fine, but alot of folks made their living doing things like that, gradually improving their lives and making lives for their families. I wonder how many fry cooks can afford a home, or the engineers that used to design machinery that is now manufactured in the prc or india. How many of them will buy new cars, upgrade to new houses that employ construction workers, that need services for the new neighborhoods,schools,teachers,bus drivers, etc, etc. Our wealth will not be sustained by service industries. I know a few guys that have been out of work for a year plus and that is everyone from weldors, administraters, and engineers. If a nation does not build,produce, and create it doesn't grow, it becomes stagnant.

mechanic · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:35:50 PM »

Wealth must have some basis. Otherwise our money is just paper. Wealth must be generated by something, be it manufacturing or whatever. Without some substantial source of wealth, the other occupations are worthless. Why and engineer, if there is nothing that needs engineering?

When manufacturing came to America, we grew wealthy. As it leaves we become poor. Those are facts. How many blue collar people can really say they make more than they did 10 years ago?

Construction? The illegals have lowered the wage base there until it's nothing.
Technology? We export most of that now, to India.
Farming? The biggest portion of our food is now imported.
Service industry? Call for computer help and see if you get an American....

I work in the forklift industry, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that more and more our wealth is leaving to go offshore. First rate companies that a few years ago would not dream of patching a forklift, are now parking them because they've become too expensive to operate. After all, most places that once manufactured, are now just distribution hubs.....

Ben

buffermop · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:41:21 PM »

all this crap could have been avoided if they never adopted free trade.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:51:44 PM »

Manufacturing is only one component of production, and it's the least profitable one, by far. Almost all of the value of any given product is in its marketing, distribution, and design. Hang on to the 19th century mindset about manufacturing if you like, but it won't change anything. I shudder to think of what the US would be like if manufacturing jobs returned en masse. It would mean that our economy was competing with countries with very low individual affluence.

Business people aren't stupid. I know a fishing rod manufacturer who used to make the high quality rods with a small factory. Then a man came to meet with him to demonstrate that he could get the same quality products manufactured in China, delivered, for one third of what he was paying. He went with the Chinese manufacturer and his business has been vastly more profitable and less troublesome since. This is just one example of the broad reality.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »

Actually librarian, that would be a 20th century mindset. I don't hold much stock in architects and engineers, many of them do not know how to put their pictures to product and many have no concept of manufacturing. FIRST HAND experience. I have also seen the elite college educated fail to be able to change wiper blades on their wives cars. Through my 19th century experiences as you call it I have not only designed drawn and built houses, I have drawn and designed equipment components and have the ability to manufacture that equipment from start to finish. Among several other skills. If you are so willing to have unemployed hard working peoples jobs go to china and use their products thats fine. You sound as though you may be one of the people (like my liberal niece)who think of hard working physical labor types as loosers. Thats fine as well. Good luck.

teamnelson · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2010, 10:07:27 PM »

I wonder sometimes if people realize that someone had to manufacture all the goods they use. And if a nation loses a minimum level of self-sufficiency in manufacturing then it loses it's sovereignty in proportion. When we can no longer maintain infrastructure without imported goods then we have crossed the line into dependency, and whoever manufactures the parts we need to keep the lights on, water flowing, and TV going owns us. I'm not talking about cheap furniture or plastic toys; I'm talking electronics parts manufactured in xianhu without which our cell towers, landlines, medical equipment, banking systems, stop lights ... Etc. Would all stop.

To the OP, I've been tracking those numbers for a year and they trend accurately with several other sources so Id say they're accurate. 40 acres and a mule is sounding good right now.

DDZ · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2010, 11:39:47 PM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on December 05, 2010, 01:51:44 PM

Manufacturing is only one component of production, and it's the least profitable one, by far.

Geee... I always thought that it was America and its manufacturing that made us such a wealthy nation. Manufacturing products and goods is what got us where we are today.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2010, 01:41:38 AM »

You're right, and it continues to be. Consider Apple, Dell, Ford, Motorolla, and Boeing as just a few examples. It makes no economic sense to have entire products or major components actually built in US factories, but these are US products. Increasingly, the low skill portion of manufacturing is going away.

20th century manufacturing was a relatively brief period mostly characterized by a period of innovation in factory operation, unionization, and decline. In the 1946 thru 2010 manufacturing boom, it became clear by about 1970 that factories in the US could not be operated economically. When televisions were no longer made in the US, the writing was on the wall.

Today, states that hang on to old models of incenting business are in decline. Take my soon to be former home state of minnesota, for example. The decline started a little at a time in the 1990s. Then 3m moved a huge part of its operations to texas. Then more and more companies left the state, so that every year or two there would be a major defection. Today multiple companies are leaving every year. Polaris and Lockheed in just the past few months. Ford is shutting down its truck plant for good soon. Why? Tax climate and regulation. And high labor costs. Same scenario in Ohio.

We could learn a lot from the Germans.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2010, 01:57:57 AM »

When I was a kid, at least 42 years ago, I could plainly see what was happening to US factory jobs. Kurt Vonnegut saw the future quite accurately when he wrote Player Piano.

wareagleguy · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2010, 05:40:17 AM »

BINGO! Great book!

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2010, 05:55:30 AM »

Most of the manufacturing we still have is either high tech required more education, or robotic requiring fewer workers. High labor manufacturing left about 20 years ago with sewing, shoe making, and textiles. Electronics left because of the skills improved overseas, and the factories could be smaller. Japan has lost a lot of their manufacturing to other Asian countries. Once a country is saturated and labor prices increase, the factories will go to other countries like India, Indonesia, South America or Africa. I do think we need to keep a sample of all types for national emergencies. For instance, have all military uniforms, boots, gear, etc, manufactured here, including all weapons, and electronics. We still also have an abundance of natural resources here, 800 year supply of coal, 200 year supply of natural gas, 200 year supply of oil on government land and offshore, enough wind in the plains states to power the entire country, 90% of the worlds copper is in the US and Canada, also uranium, abundant farmland, lead, iron, limestone, granite (with is 5% uranium), etc.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:01:25 AM »

Dixie Dude:

Great post!

mechanic · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:27:07 AM »

There is already a law requiring military goods to be made here. Heckler and Koch built a plant in Columbus, Ga. for that purpose, then the contract did not come to fruition. However, the great bulk of what our soldiers use is offshore, including boots and the kevlar for vests to name a couple.

When it was announced that Kia would be building a plant here in Ga., it was also announced that there would be plenty of $50k jobs as well. Most of those assembly jobs wound up in the $13.00 per hour range.

Kia built here because the state of Ga. provided the land, the grading and the building as well as tax incentives. What happens when all that runs out? Mexico?

In my county we have unemployment over 10%. I've looked and looked and there are no jobs for these folks, education or not. Where do they go? Would some of them be glad for a textile job...I betcha' they would.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:36:06 AM »

Billable overhead (BO)/ NON Billable overhead (NBO). Is a American business more likely to expand with BO in house, or a solely NBO based business?

Are American business' that have BO in house going to employ more American workers?

Are more American workers going to create more jobs for other Americans?

Was the OP more about employment in America or foreign lands?

Does offshore manufacturing lessen our domestic tax base?

Does offshore manufacturing lessen our GDP?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:53:06 AM »

Yep, half of our tade deficit is imported oil. We need to be using compressed natural gas (CNG) and synthetic oil from coal. Germany went diesel and cut their imported oil in about half. We need to build the transmission power lines from the Mississippi to the plains states and generate wind power to push east thus eliminating some coal and natural gas power plants, saving that for transportation fuel. Forget hybrids for now and electric. It cost too much, and it is infant technology. CNG is here and now, but only gas companies are using it. Vehicle can refill in 15 minutes and travel normal speeds for about 100 miles. This is better than electric which requires a long time to charge and doesn't have the range. Also diesel makes more fuel per barrel of oil 27 gallons of diesel vs 30 gallons of gasoline, plus it gets higher mileage, thus cutting oil imports. Infrastructure to handle diesel is already in place. Money spent here instead of overseas on imported oil creates jobs here. Also, use synthetic diesel from coal, and swith coal power plants to nuclear. Thus saving coal for transportation.

The other half of the trade deficit is with imported goods especially China. More pressure needs to be exerted on China to float their currency to erase the trade deficit with them.

Once our trade is balanced, more people will be employed here.

The above can be done in less than 10 years. CNG and diesel especially. Just like switching from leaded gas over about a 10 year period. Then we can explore the possibilities of hybrids and algae oil.

We also need to explore more high tech manufacturing using robotics to keep more jobs and manufacturing here. This can be done with tax breaks to industry who installs robots in their industry.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2010, 07:09:23 AM »

DD, mentioning hybrid and electric, did you see where Japan jumped on the lithium deposits in Bolivia? Seems they will beat us too the punch on that avenue.

I have been around robotics for the last few years, both usage and manufacturing mat'l handling equip. They are good, no doubt about it. If a business does not have repetetive product production, they can have a hard time paying for themselves. If the product line is constantly changing in the case of some welding robots, the prospect can be iffy, is there enough demand for the product to warrant its use? Packaging/assembly, absolutely a good thing. Robotic welding in vehicle manufacture, good thing. If people aren't buying your product? Bad thing to have an expensive pc of equipment not running. Not disagreeing with you at all. I had the numbers of the amount of refined fuel we export as well, mostly to the caribbean, but cannot find it. It was alot. I agree with diesel, alot less steps in refining to get the product. Gonna have to get me one, one of these days. Hybrids are popular in Brazil with the fuel created from the sugar industry waste. Maybe the gov't should subsidise more $ for farmers to grow sugar beets instead of tobacco? (tobacco revenues helped build this nation in its early years)Making fuel from corn is too expensive from what I have read.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2010, 08:22:08 AM »

A few thoughts , Military bases do require American made goods when aval. There are some products not made in America anymore.
Construction drives much of the manufacturing . When its down so are the producers.
Robots don't get wages, sick, moody, extra pay for OT etc. whats not to like ?
OSHA and EPA caused many jobs to go off shore . Maybe some Americans lived because of it but that's never mentioned much.
Unions are good in many cases but not always. When they learn to adjust wages and benifits both ways to keep members working they will be great once more.

We may not be working because we voted in the wrong leaders , allowed Govt. to go unchecked and wanted more than we are worth. We no longer can charge what the market will bare. We must give worth that buyers are willing to spend cash on.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2010, 08:49:06 AM »

My idea is if you switch to wind, solar, and nuclear, the coal industry suffers. If you in turn help kick start synthetic diesel from coal, you keep the coal industry going. Win-Win. Cut our imports, higher fuel milage, stop oil imports. All jobs kept at home.

It has been proven that if you make alcohol from food sources, the food prices go up. 90% of the grain crops go to animal feed, not human direct consumption. It causes not only corn, wheat, etc to go up in price but cattle, hogs, poultry and eggs. Make synthetic fuel from coal instead.

Algae oil is more productive than any corn or sugar cane. We could produce all our oil from algae in an area the size of Rhode Island. It is not yet cost effective. Gasoline will have to stay above $4 a gallon for Algae to be competitive. Coal oil also then becomes competitive. However if the government did not tax coal and oil company profits from synthetic coal oil production for a while to get it kick started, then the Arabs can keep their oil as we have an 800 year supply of coal and their oil will be running out in about 50 years.

The more money kept at home, the more tax revenue is generated and more jobs created. I don't know the figures, but if building and operating wind, nuclear, and coal synthetic fuels plants, we cut the unemployment by 2-3%, that will help tremendously.

One way to do this is not tax any new domestic fuel production facilities, and offsetting with tax on imported oil.