Author Topic: Forend, Resting, Accuracy......redundancy. (Read 1256 times)

Blackhawker · « **on:** November 16, 2010, 06:38:41 AM »

OK, I know parts of this question are/may be addressed in the FAQ's and parts may have been addressed in several other questions/threads but I'm still not sure what is going on here with my issue. Here is my problem and then I'll post my question.

I've been shooting my 38-55 Target Classic for over two years with better than acceptable results and accuracy. Truthfully, I'm very happy with it and it's one of my favorite rifles to shoot. I was at the range about a month ago and was shooting the 75 yrd range and couldn't keep more than a string of three rounds in the same place....a group here, then a group there, and another over here, yet I was aiming at the same place. At first I thought that maybe it was just my eyes and I was having a bad day BUT I went to the range a few days ago and had the same results. So I was careful to watch where I've been resting the rifle. Typically, with my H&R's and my Thompson Contenders, I always rest directly UNDER the hinge. What I noticed was that when I rested the rifle under the hinge, I got erratic results but when I rested the rifle on the wood of the forend, with the back of the rest even with the back buffer, I got perfect results. The trouble is, I don't recall this being the point of resting in the past. So I wonder if something has loosened up on the rifle or what has occurred. YES, I can still get good groups with the rifle but if I ever shoot it off hand, can I expect irregular groups?

So here is the question: What is wrong here? Is it that my forend has somehow become loose and doesn't fit properly anymore or am I missing something here? Secondly, if the point of where one rests a rifle has so much to do with it's point of impact, how can one honestly say that when shooting from a standing position (non-rested) that the rifle will shoot exactly in the same place as when it was sighted in on a rest?

Additional info on the question:
*I do NOT use an O-ring on my forend mount.
*Erratic results means mostly groups moving six inches in a vertical plane and maybe two to three inches in the horizontal. It looks like stringing to me but there is just a little too much movement in the horizontal plane for that....maybe??

Any help would be greatly appreciated....even if the help is posting a link I failed to find somewhere on the site.

Thanks!
Chris

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2010, 08:36:36 AM »

Many things cause groups top open up on a Handi.

Just yesterday I was at the range with the lead sled and three handis and a 760 Rem. I have shot off the sled a couple times in the past and gotten good results. No so yesterday. The 454 was shooting very poor groups so after about 20 or so rounds I set it aside and picked up the 357 maxi. It too wasn't up to its usual good shooting. Then I started with the 760. This was a from scratch shoot as I just put as new base and scope on. Nikon 2x7 in a Weaver base and Millet rings. I don't care for the rings, but needed something with wind age adjustment because of a problem with the base being square to the bore. PO fudged it up.... ANYHOW, it always been a good shooter with peeps but the wife wanted a scope. (Her gun ya know) I couldn't get a group to save my arse!! I blamed the scope as it was up and down and down then up. I was getting frustrated. So I put it aside and grabbed the 223 handi. Pretty much same story, I shout 8-10 rounds and I had my blow up and set that gun aside. (Along with all ammo from that batch!!)

Pops wanted to try the lead sled so I moved over to the sand bags where he was using. I picked up the 454. I noticed the breech was dirty. Didn't think much on it and shot a couple more times. The shots where shooting over a foot low! When all of a sudden it began popping open at the shot. The previous shots where dropping father and farther below the POA. I removed the barrel and cleaned the latch and shelf. Reinstalled and shot again. Pop opens stopped groups shrank and the POI rose. This is a newly mounted syn thumb hole stock with a couple "O" rings. The forend is tighter than I like, but OK. This gun was always a good shooter, didn't change much with the re-chamber. When I was done it was shooting under 2" at 100 and in a big ragged hole at 50.

The 357 was immediately better off the bags. Back to how it always shot. Even the 760 began to settle down and shoot just over an inch at 100 and under that at fifty.

I like to keep my barrels clean, but don't like to shoot for group from a clean barrel. I fire a couple fouling shots first.

So try a good cleaning, check the fit of the forend. Not too tight and no binding. then clean the latch and shelf. Both should be clean and dry. CONSISTENTLY close the action with a firm snap. Shoot off a good bench, don't rest on the barrel never rest barrel on a hard surface. Breath normally and relax, Pull trigger fully and completely to the back of the trigger guard. Practice follow thru, re establish the cross-hairs back on target and then your done with the shot. This last part is especially important with long barrels and slow moving bullets.

I don't really know what was the problem with the sled. I mean its pretty fool proof. But it wasn't working well for me yesterday. All I can think is that I wasn't "snugging" the pad up against the back well enough. Remember the biggest key in any shooting.. CONSISTENCY is key!!!

KEEP shooting, you will get it!!

CW

lonewolf5348 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2010, 09:13:01 AM »

I don't have the problem with my 38-55
I like to position the front rest just under the barrel hold down screw.
I also would check and see if you can run the dollar bill down between the barrel and fore-end stock
I have one H@R the 243 cal. I was driving me crazy shot great went home clean the barrel next time out 5" high after a few fouling shot the group would be excellent:I have not clean the bore after a range session I run a clean patch down the bore no solvents of any time.I will clean the bore after the hunting season is over.
My 38-55 will shoot the same clean or dirty still prints the same group.
I seen a few days were I would just not apply the same pressure to the stock and see my group open a little

gendoc · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2010, 09:25:32 AM »

good advise cw, blackhawker, sometimes its hard to find consistancy with any shooter
with different rests.

i use a lead-sled to get the firearm as close to poi as poa.....
then i use a pad resting under the forend. all of my shooting houses that we have built are equiped
with a removable pad to rest the forend on.

also we freehand test and of course the results are different.

we stay with the shoot'n house performance cus thats the way we mostly shoot our handi's
or other brand rifles.

pin rests work well with handi's that perfer that type of rest position.

if your stuff is changing between shooting visits, you might need to seek other problems.

stick to one type rest and see what happens.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2010, 01:31:35 PM »

Oh come guys! Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man; Harry Pope. (lol)

necchi · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2010, 03:07:40 PM »

"What is wrong here? Is it that my forend has somehow become loose and doesn't fit properly anymore or am I missing something here?"

If you hold the metal frame of the gun in one hand, and the forearm in the other, then give a firm twisting motion.
If you can see movement by the spacer or at the barrel breech you have an issue. It's really not that complicated, consistant shooting is about consistantcy. Without a consistantly snug lock up, the barrel is sitting in a different place everytime it's opened and closed
Have you ever tried tightening the screws that hold the spacer in? Could be that Yes, after two years something has changed, wood dries and changes, wood pulls in moisture and changes, parts wear in and need tightening up.
It might be time for a bit of a shim, Aluminum foil is .0005, folded it's .001, folded again it's .002,,,so try a few layers in there and see if it tightens up any play. No body said a shim has to be glued in, that part is not carved in stone.
Do, some of the things listed in the faqs,??
The "O" ring isn't the only thing listed in the faqs, it just seems to be the patent and easiest answer for everyone that comes along.'
Short of being there to handle your gun and watch you shoot, there is frustratingly little you can do on a web site to help someone sometimes.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2010, 03:21:27 PM »

Quote from: necchi on November 16, 2010, 03:07:40 PM

If you hold the metal frame of the gun in one hand, and the forearm in the other, then give a firm twisting motion.

To check the barrel to frame fit, do that with the forend off and hold the barrel instead, a tight fitting forend may hide the looseness, it will appear tight, but isn't, this would be with the action closed.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2010, 04:26:47 AM »

Thanks to all of you for your constructive replies. Unfortunately, I hadn't had too much time to reply (even time now will be short) but I have been reading what has been written as they've been coming in. Thanks!

As I stated in my original commentary, I managed to get the rifle to group as it did in the past and found that positioning of the rest had everything to do with it. Once I became more aware of the rest placement, I fired at least 50 more rounds with very consistent groupings. Nonetheless, I will be checking some things on the rifle with reference to many if not all of your suggestions when I get a chance at home.

The thing that I keep pondering is free hand or off hand shooting vs. resting the rifle when sighting it in. As many of you may know by now, I don't hunt any medium or large game despite the 38-55 being perfect for deer or even black bear. Instead, when I do hunt (if you can call it that), I tend to hunt prairie dogs. I'm a very non-traditional prairie dog hunter being that I like to use a lot of the "classic" calibers when I shoot. (45 Colt, 45-70, 38-55, 30-30) If a group moves by two inches when shooting off hand vs on the bench, when hunting a deer, it would mean chasing a deer vs. dropping it in it's tracks. With prairie dogs, being two inches off means hitting or missing the target altogether. So I always wonder if there is much movement and how much movement there is with point of impact when shooting from the two platforms....with any single shot, break open rifle for that matter...and do some rifles or calibers move more than others? Have any of you considered this when sighting in your rifles (on a rest) to ready yourselves for hunting and then find that you're not hitting the target where you would have liked when shooting off hand? Has anyone ever tested this?

With respect to that, (and I haven't tested this lately) should I just place my rest in the typical place where I put my hand when shooting off hand? I think Lonewolf is the only one thus far that I have heard that places the rest further out on the stock.
Just food for thought I guess.....

Thanks again to all of you for your responses. I will definitely check more into this using your advice.

P.S.
CW, I read your thread on your incident at the range. Sorry it happened and am glad you're OK. Anytime I hear or read about something like that happening, it really shakes me up as it probably does to all of us. Especially when it happens to a very seasoned shooter and experienced reloader. I always wonder when something like that is going happen. It seems inevitable that after shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds, Murphy's Law will catch up to us at some point. I sure hope you can discover what was the cause so you can eliminate the possibility in the future....for you and for all of us here.

catman50plus · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2010, 04:12:47 AM »

Blackhawker, I don't know how many other contact points you had, or if that was a problem. I do know for sure with the use of the Lead Sled, sometimes there is a problem. I had a few comp rifles that would require free recoil to group and most with some pressure on the butt pad.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2010, 04:22:36 AM »

Quote from: catman50plus on November 18, 2010, 04:12:47 AM

Blackhawker, I don't know how many other contact points you had, or if that was a problem. I do know for sure with the use of the Lead Sled, sometimes there is a problem. I had a few comp rifles that would require free recoil to group and most with some pressure on the butt pad.

Nope, I don't use the lead sled. Ironically, I'm somewhat against using that type of rest. I like to either sandbag the front or put the front on a single rest and then I do the rest of the rifle on my shoulder etc.
Thanks for the info though!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2010, 04:45:44 AM »

The one continuity is good grouping handiw is to rest front as as close to hinge as possible.

Now having said that, a well bedded forend isn't going to have as much discrepancies with a front bag or rest position as a poorly bedded one. Just saying

Cw

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2010, 04:55:26 AM »

I may shoot a lot like you, I use the bench to get an offhand or hunting rifle to POA and then go to the 'position' it will be used in. If an offhand target gun I tend to hold, or rather, use a 'fingertip rest' back toward the hinge area. A hunting gun I hold in the more conventional mannor about midway on the forestock. Given that, while on the benchbag I rest it where I would hold it. I have yet to have a rifle that didnt need some sight/scope tweaking when I go to the field position because the recoil impulse to my body is so different to that on the bench. Light recoiling guns are pretty close, though. Heavy kickers, for me, require a firm forestock grip from underneath the bag (emulating my hold in the field) or they vary quite a bit in verticle stringing. The buttplate position to the shoulder is critical on the bench (all the time, really) and should also be where you place it in the field.
The 'sled' apparatus doesnt guarrantee a better group any more than a bench over offhand does. All require attention to detail and consistency. I have had enough 'bad' days to know that sometimes I dont shoot well. I prove it by grabbing one of my known to be accurate .22s with comparable sighting equipment to the test rifle and shooting just as bad a group. Then I can stop being frustrated and stop messing around trying to find a solution to a non-existing rifle problem.
So, the short answer to your question from my perspective is to rest it where you hold it.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2010, 05:22:40 AM »

Generally, when shooting my heavier and longer barreled rifles such as the 28" Target Classic 38-55 or my 32" 45-70 Buffalo Classic, I tend to rest or just lay these rifles on the palm of my hand (with fingers pointed somewhat forward) rather than grip the forend. Despite heavy recoil from the 45-70, I just let it go and let it flow. I never fight recoil. It's analogous to "limp-wristing" a heavy recoiling single action revolver. I also tend to keep my palm "rest" somewhere between halfway and three quarter's the way back on the forend, closer to the frame rather than out near the securing screw. I don't know what this position is referred to as but along with my hand in that position, I tend to lay my upper arm along the side of my torso and my elbow somewhat tucked into my side and my forearm supporting outward near a 45 to 60 degree angle. I do this from both a standing or sitting position. I try to keep this position because it emulates resting on a bench and I find I can shoot with the most steadiness like this.

That being said, this is why I ponder why we shoot with the rest under the hinge when sighting in (for supposed best accuracy) yet we all tend to hunt or shoot off hand with our hand far or farther out on the forend.
Make sense???
Does a well bedded forend compensate for this?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2010, 01:11:27 AM »

BH,

I would check the stock bolt torque as it takes very little movement of the stock to cause the POI to go up quite a bit.

As far as the front rest and shootin off the bench, i put the rest under the hinge, againist the trigger guard, but I still hold onto the forestock with my hand like I would shooting in the field. The front rest helps steady me so I can zero the gun but I don't end up with a POI at the range that is different than my hunting POI.

FWIW, I have one handi that has an aluminum pillar installed in the stud screw hole and the entire barrel channel has been bedded. This was done by a gunsmith for the previous owner. This gun is no more accurate than my other rifles that I just put a rubber washing on the stud to isolate the forearm.

BB

petemi · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:07:32 AM »

I've gotta head this off with a statement. "I'm not the great shot I used to be". I posted this before. My friend and neighbor brought over a .280 Handi he couldn't get to group for anything. All I did was drop an "O" ring on it, and he's delighted. When I shoot, I keep my rest between the hinge and the screw stud. The reason for that is because that is where my hold is for hunting.....and that's what the machine is for....hunting.

Pete

Blackhawker · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2010, 05:05:54 AM »

Quote from: petemi on November 19, 2010, 04:07:32 AM

I've gotta head this off with a statement. "I'm not the great shot I used to be". I posted this before. My friend and neighbor brought over a .280 Handi he couldn't get to group for anything. All I did was drop an "O" ring on it, and he's delighted. When I shoot, I keep my rest between the hinge and the screw stud. The reason for that is because that is where my hold is for hunting.....and that's what the machine is for....hunting.

Pete

Thanks Pete, gonna get an "O" ring and try it. I like the philosophy on putting the rest where you put your hand. I guess I'm gonna move it out and see what happens. Up until now I've just done what the general recommendation has been.....under the hinge. Next time I got to the range (hopefully next week) I'll post the results.

Chris

montveil · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:51:47 AM »

I use a 1/4 by 20 short set screw in the front stock as described in the stickies and that has eliminated any differences in torque.

digs68 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2010, 11:45:46 PM »

I'm a relatively new Handi owner, but never understood the whole "under the hinge" resting scenario. I mean, I've tried it & had mediocre results. My concern would be that you're actually putting all the pressure against the latch mechanism, which I would think could cause pop-opens or premature latch wear.
Resting at or near the forearm screw should actually relieve the pressure on the latch mechanism and ensure the barrel is more firmly seated against the action, shouldn't it?
I've found it to be a more natural (and comfortable) feeling to rest the forearm on the bag, and have had actually better grouping.
I've also noticed that, while a fouled barrel shoots much better than a clean one, that after quite a few rounds, the groups will start to open up again (yes I'm letting the barrel cool). So I'll thoroughly clean the barrel, fire a couple fouling shots, and the gun is grouping nicely again.
The best and most useful advice I've found is to relieve forearm pressure a bit, then add the O-ring. Then I noticed a huge difference in accuracy of the rifle.
One last note, I will agree whole-heartedly that a dry latch is a must!!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2010, 11:57:17 PM »

Quote from: digs68 on November 19, 2010, 11:45:46 PM

I'm a relatively new Handi owner, but never understood the whole "under the hinge" resting scenario. I mean, I've tried it & had mediocre results. My concern would be that you're actually putting all the pressure against the latch mechanism, which I would think could cause pop-opens or premature latch wear.
Resting at or near the forearm screw should actually relieve the pressure on the latch mechanism and ensure the barrel is more firmly seated against the action, shouldn't it?
I've found it to be a more natural (and comfortable) feeling to rest the forearm on the bag, and have had actually better grouping.
I've also noticed that, while a fouled barrel shoots much better than a clean one, that after quite a few rounds, the groups will start to open up again (yes I'm letting the barrel cool). So I'll thoroughly clean the barrel, fire a couple fouling shots, and the gun is grouping nicely again.
The best and most useful advice I've found is to relieve forearm pressure a bit, then add the O-ring. Then I noticed a huge difference in accuracy of the rifle.
One last note, I will agree wholeheartedly that a dry latch is a must!!

Your on the right track Diggs!!

Just forget about accelerated latch wear form rest position, you would live your life a dozen times over before this would be a concern. BUT a proper rest is assumed. I mean if your resting the hinge on a hard material, then Yes this WILL not shoot well. Same said for resting ANY part of a firearm against a hard object. Even comparing a stable rest to your hands in an offhand position is not the same. IMHO, good sand bags from a stable bench, are about the best.

CW

Blackhawker · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2010, 04:50:41 AM »

OK, took my Target Classic to the range last week. Fired some test loads but I also fired a lot of my typical loads that work well in the rifle so that I can change my rest point and determine the results. My point of impact at 75 yards changed in an upward direction as the rest was placed further from the hinge point and frame. (obviously) I chose two places in which to test the rest position. (NOTE: my front rest and ONLY rest is approximately 2 to 2.5 inches in width) The two places I chose to place the rest corresponded within an area where I might place my hand when shooting off hand. The first tested place was with the rear of the rest adjacent to the end of the wood on the forearm (just before the plastic buffer). The second place tested was with the forearm screw exactly in the middle of the rest perch. The end result was bullets impacting roughly six to eight inches higher when rested on the screw. Accuracy was roughly the same with roughly 2 inch groups for stings of 10 shots by comparison with groups scattering when rested on the frame on prior trips to the range.

I might note, if I haven't already made note of this; I am using at tang mounted Marble's sight on this rifle. Any slight movement or flex between the fame and barrel at the hinge point will or should grossly effect my elevation point of impact on a target for obvious reasons. I don't know if a rifle with both front and rear sights mounted on the barrel will show this kind of elevation change with rest point changes.

I have yet to try the "O" ring addition because I wanted to change only one variable at a time. The next time out I'll try the "O" ring and see if my groups tighten up. However, at 75 yards and shooting at three inch circles, I'm surprised I can even SEE that far, much less hit a target at that distance, so I'm not expecting miracles.

necchi · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:37:23 AM »

That's what a feller needs to do, good sound experimentation.
Keep in mind when trying the "O" ring thing that screw torque is an issue. The idea is to hold the forearm away from the barrel abit and keep vibration to a minumum. To give it the best results the screw should be just snug, I think some guy's recomend 4 ft pounds of torque and have tools to make this repeatable. Point is, putting an O ring in and crushing it by over tightening the screw doesn't do any good.
For proving hand loaded rounds I rest at the hinge point as recomended. When finalizing sight in for hunting I hold the forearm in my hand as would be normal in the field, and support my hand with the bags. That's a variable that can't be replicated by supporting the forearm directly on the bags.
Good luck,

Blackhawker · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2010, 03:44:49 AM »

Last night I was looking over and measuring groups fired on some of my test load targets from my last trip to the range. When rested on the forearm screw, I had shot several five shot strings UNDER 1.5 inches with one group at 1.25 inches. That's not common from my past experience with this rifle. The best I've shot one time was 1.5" at the same distance, most everything else was 2" or slightly over. So maybe there is something to be said about the place I've chosen to rest this rifle.