45-70 405 cast with trail boss- kill deer to 100yds?

[thejanitor]

I was wondering if anyone has shot a deer or hog with a 405 cast bullet using trail boss. How many yards? How did the bullet perform? I do not know how many feet per second my bullet is traveling or know the ft lbs at 100 yds but don't see how 405 grains of lead going what must be 1000 fps or more wouldn't flop a deer over just fine out to 100yds. I wouldn't mind carrying the 45-70 in the swamp when we go in to move the deer, most shots are 60 yds or less. But would like to hear from some of you who have used the TB loads for game.   I can use other powder but I traded for all the cast bullets I have and am not sure of the softness, so would like to keep them on the slow side.
I can hunt with 300 gr remington jacketed or 405 remington jacketed, just wanted to see if anyone in a controlled situation (no long shots) has used TB on the hunt. 
Or if someone with a 22" handi wants to try our recipe through a chrony to give me an estimate on FPS I will pm them with it so I can look in the ballistic charts for bullet energy. Thanks thejanitor

[aussie rich]

Hey Janitor

I have a 1895 Marlin, and while I have never put a bullet in anything but paper, I have been testing a lot of Trail boss loads with 405 grain pills (for some reason over here I could only buy Trail Boss in the 1.5 kg/3.3 pound bottle so I can do a lot of experimenting).

I have been using store bought 405 hard cast, and I have a Lee 405g hollow base mold also. I have been using data from the ADI manual and working between 12 grains and 13 grains, the listed minimum and max loads. (ADI manual free on the net  )

While I don't have a chrony, the ADI manual lists these loads at 970 - 1010 out of a 24 inch barrel and the pressure at 24500 - 25600 CUP.

They are very light to shoot, the cases all have smudge down the sides, and don't need to be re sized when reloaded. I am short and light (70kg) and I can put 50 through on the bench and not even a twinge in my shoulder the next day (although I have a slip on Limb Saver pad  ).

My Marlin has a 22 inch barrel, so I think the 13 grain load should just be approx 1000fps. For a point in comparison info from the Remington web sight has the factory 405 grain soft point from Remington at 1330 fps/1590fpe at the muzzle, and at 300 yards 977fps/858fpe.

The accuracy though could be the issue, while I can get 1.5 inches at 50 yards with both projectiles at 13 grains (4x power scope and off the bench), at a 100 yards the groups drift out to 4 inches plus, and if zeroed at 50, about 5 inches low at 100, though I must admit the rifle has had only 150 rounds since new, all low velocity cast, the scope came of the ark and then was run over by a truck before I got it and the rifle owner in not a particularly good shot anyway. 

Hope this can help a bit

regards

Rich

[ButlerFord45]

Only if you hit it.   

[Iowa Fox]

At 1000-1200 fps it will flatten them. Bullet placement is everything, without it they will run like being hit with a BB gun.

Slower moving correctly shaped lead bullets are very effective.

[BBF]

The shape, actually the size of the meplat bothers me with the Lee molds. I have three of them in .458 cal and all have what looks to me an undersized FN.

[Graycg]

The original blackpowder loads only clocked around 1200 feet per second and killed big critters like buffalo cleanly...  as was said above, if you hit it, it will be dead,  if  you know the trajectory and can estimate range, you will kill most things...

regards and glad to see someone from another continent shooting our oldies but goodies.

graycg

[Dezynco]

With the 45-70, you mostly rely upon bullet weight, not speed.  That's why the old black powder cartridges like the 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-110, etc relied on more powder to get higher velocities.  I had a 42-120 that would sling a 520 grain bullet at nearly 1500fps.  It was brutal at both ends!

I consider the 45-70 to be a 200 yard cartridge for deer, no matter how you load it.  That's just because there are more efficient cartridges out there if you think you might shoot farther than that.  The buffalo hunters didn't care where the game ran off to on the open plains, they just drove up with the wagon and skint them.  I'm not saying that you can't shoot and kill a deer farther than that, but on the scal of things, deer are small targets at those ranges.

Having said all of that, I figgure that 1000fps - 1200fps is plenty of velocity out to 100 yards or so with a big 405 grain bullet.  Just get some practice in so that you will know where to hold over at the different ranges.  Empty milk jugs filled with water are lots of fun!  Set them up at 50, 75, 100, 125, 150, and 200 yards and watch them explode!  Pay attention to where you are holding the sights.  Write it down if necessary.

[mauserand9mm]

Yes, I was wondering about this.

The only cast loads that I can get to shoot out of my 458WM for off-the shelf hard cast (coated) projectiles are:

405gn with 20grns Trailboss for about 1000fps
500gn with 41gns AR2207 for about 1600fps

The velocities are from data only - I haven't measured them. The 405gn loads are very mild, and the 500gn loads are about equivalent to 308Win in muzzle energy and perceived recoil.

I have heard that the hard cast projectile are too hard for game and that even the 1000fps loads will go through deer. They are super hard - I got a few stuck in the barrel (not all at the same time) as I was developing the loads and used a cleaning rod to knock them back out. This wasn't easy, and the brass end of the rod ended up getting deformed whereas the lead projectile only had some of the synthetic coating taken off.