Author Topic: Lee Collet Die Test (Read 1850 times)

Buckskin · « **on:** December 18, 2010, 03:14:02 AM »

Well I finally got a decent day with slight winds so I tested my loads for my 204 Encore barrel with full lenght RCBS dies and Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies. It was a limited test because I had only 5 rounds that were not full length sized that I used with the Lee dies. I used 27.8 grains H335 for the 5 neck sized brass, and then loaded 10 rounds with the same amount of powder with the fully resized brass, which is my best load as of date. All were seated at 2.350". I shot 3 five shot groups so I had 2 of the full sized and 1 of the neck sized. The full sized groups were about 1 inch or a little better and the neck sized was less that 3/4". I was truely amazed at the difference. And am going to order a set made for my 300 RUM.

wncchester · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2010, 01:13:37 PM »

I haven't found neck sizing to always help accuracy but when it does it's always been with the Lee collet die, and it NEVER hurts!

telebasher · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2010, 04:12:21 PM »

I use the Lee collet dies in both my Savage model 40 and my Handi Hornet. With the Handi Hornet I have to bump the shoulder back after 4 or 5 loadings or they tend to stick, and yes I tried polishing the chamber. It's not a big deal, I keep a log on my Hornet brass and every 5th loading use the full length die. The Savage does not show to need it's brass full length sized after 9 loadings.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2010, 02:56:38 AM »

Before you get too excited about Lee collet dies, I'd like to let you know that there has been a cartridge or two I've reloaded for that gave worse accuracy when a Lee collet die was used to resize the cases.

Buckskin · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2010, 03:31:39 AM »

I'd be interested in hearing more about those cartridges that you had problems with. Did you send them back to Lee, they do have guaranteed improved accuracy for their collet dies...

wncchester · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2010, 07:53:28 AM »

"...a cartridge or two I've reloaded for that gave worse accuracy when a Lee collet die was used.."

Not all rifles or loads like neck sizing. So, perhaps the relivant next question would be, did you get better accuracy with another type of neck die?

necchi · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2010, 08:25:24 AM »

That's what I'm curious about,,
Isn't messing with neck sizers or bushings dies really messing with neck tention?
And/Or assuring less runout ?
Or is it all about not body sizing and simply slowing down or eliminating case head seperation by working just the neck and shoulder bump??

revbc · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2010, 09:07:30 AM »

I'm glad the OP had success with the Encore using neck sizing, that has not been my experience with Encores, Handis, or lever action marlins. Handis are especially sensitive to being neck sized, most just do not lock up consistently and therefore demonstrate a POI drift. The encore has a little different method of locking the barrel, but if the frame flexes enough, POI will be affected (in my experience). I like the collet dies for my bolt guns, but shy away from them in anything else.

Bobby

Grumulkin · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2010, 12:25:57 AM »

Quote from: Buckskin on December 19, 2010, 03:31:39 AM

I'd be interested in hearing more about those cartridges that you had problems with. Did you send them back to Lee, they do have guaranteed improved accuracy for their collet dies...

The first cartridge I noticed this with was an Encore 7mm/08 handgun. Using brand new unscrewed-around-with brass I got, as I recall, about 1 MOA. I was puzzled when using brass sized with Lee Collet dies gave groups quite a bit bigger. When I went to full length sizing, accuracy went back to about where it was before.

The same thing happened with an Encore 300 Win. Mag. rifle. In that case I also tried a traditional neck sizing die which, unlike the Lee Collet Die, gave accuracy similar to full length sized cases.

No, I didn't send the dies back to Lee. It was easier just to quit using them. Their collet dies also leave bullets quite loose in the case neck at times. Yes, I know I can turn down the spindle but I don't want to when I can just use regular neck sizing dies and not have that problem.

KansasPaul · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:28:30 AM »

I have played around a lot with .223 caliber in bolt action, break action and auto loading rifles using both full length and neck sizing. I do use Lee dies exclusively. In my experience using the collet die for loads in my Savage bolt action produces very accurate rounds - not so with the Handi-rifle or Contender. In the Handi and contender I would often see vertical stringing - why, I don't know - but FL sizing fixed the vertical stringing issue. With my AR, groups spread. I also learned the importance of separating brass by head stamp. Military brass always gets FL sized. I also have not have good luck with Federal brass so it too always gets FL sized. I save all of my Winchester brass for collet sizing and use in my Savage.

Paul

Buckskin · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:54:17 AM »

The collet dies do seem to reduce neck tension a lot. Just the weight of the arm easily seats the bullet, but they seem plenty tight. Although I don't think I would try it with my AR.

I reloaded another test batch. This time I had plenty of fire formed brass for neck sizing. So I did 20 rounds of each neck sized and full-sized. Hopefullly I will get a decent day in the near future to play again.

I got a hunch that Santa is bringing me a Lead Sled FCX, so I may wait until then for my testing...

wncchester · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2010, 04:51:19 AM »

"Their collet dies also leave bullets quite loose in the case neck at times."

Not for me, nor anyone else I shoot with. Seems 1 thou of case grip is plenty, all we can use actually.

A lot of emphsis gets placed on making neck inside diameter several thou smaller than the bullets for "higher bullet tension". Fact is, all it does is increase the required seating effort, not increase the bullet pull at all after about 1 thou of undersizing. And excessive seating effort in a too small neck virtually assures high seated bullet runout.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2010, 06:16:32 AM »

Quote from: wncchester on December 20, 2010, 04:51:19 AM

"Their collet dies also leave bullets quite loose in the case neck at times."

Not for me, nor anyone else I shoot with. Seems 1 thou of case grip is plenty, all we can use actually.

A lot of emphsis gets placed on making neck inside diameter several thou smaller than the bullets for "higher bullet tension". Fact is, all it does is increase the required seating effort, not increase the bullet pull at all after about 1 thou of undersizing. And excessive seating effort in a too small neck virtually assures high seated bullet runout.

Are you telling me that never once has a case sized with a Lee Collet Die by you or your shooting associates left cases with necks so large bullets weren't held securely?

Have you never had to turn down the mandrel to get case necks sized enough?

If so, you are living a charmed life. I have used Lee Collet Dies in quite a number of cartridges and most have on occasion not sized case necks enough. By enough, I mean bullets were left so loose they could be seated or removed easily with ones fingers.

Buckskin · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2010, 07:07:07 AM »

It sounds like if the bullets aren't being held securely that it likely would be bad brass or poor technique. Now I'm no expert on these dies to say the least, but as I was checking each piece after resizing to see if there was enough being done to the neck, I noticed that there was a definate feel as to when the collet was doing it's job. I was also rotating 180 degrees and hitting it again as suggested. All of which I'm sure your familiar with.
All the necks were very uniform and seemed to have a good grip on the bullet.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2010, 07:47:22 AM »

I know it sounds silly--but--
I hope some folks are not trying to get good neck tension
from cases that have been turned down on the neck. Ain't going to happen.

OK that said, if all the cases exhibit not enough hold on the bullet,
Then increase ram pressure or turn down the mandrel.
If it is once in a while then look at technique or an odd piece of brass.
If bullets can be seated by hand on all the brass then by all means look into or at a different method.
Something needs to be changed.
There is a limit to neck tension before it goes over the top.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2010, 11:15:29 AM »

I don't know where all of you have been, but the issue of loose bullets in Lee Collet Die sized cases is well known and publicized for years. Really, there is nothing at all wrong with my presses or my technique. The solution, I've heard, is to turn down the mandrel. If there was a huge advantage to using these dies I'd probably do that but, as I see it, the only advantage they have is the ability to resize cases without using messy lube.

Irrespective of what Lee says, I've not found them to give better accuracy than dies that size cases in the traditional way.

flashhole · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2010, 02:30:20 PM »

Grumulkin wrote "Irrespective of what Lee says, I've not found them to give better accuracy than dies that size cases in the traditional way."

That's not been my experience. One example, I have a Ruger #1V 25-06 that has a rather generous chamber. Fire-formed brass that is neck sized with the Lee Collet Neck die produces ammo with much better accuracy than a FL sizer die produces. I can actually feel the neck form around the mandrel when using the die on my Redding Ultramag press and I have a bit of range to adjust neck tension when using the die. In addition to the 25-06 I own a Lee Collet neck die for 7mm Rem Mag and 223 Rem and get good results with both but not as dramatic as with the 25-06. I attribute that to the other guns having a much tighter chamber. I've also used them on 300 Win Mag and 243 Winchester with excellent results. I have noticed they take a bit of getting used to when trying to extract the maximum benefit but it is not difficult to learn the technique. For $15 you can't go wrong.

Slowpoke Slim · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2010, 10:30:01 PM »

Grumulkin,

You'll never get anywhere with these Lee fellers...

Just smile, and wave, and say, "Have a nice day, and Merry Christmas."

The reason the Lee dies are so cheap, is so you don't feel bad about tossing them in the trash. Life's too short to load with Lee equipment...

Merry Christmas folks!

Buckskin · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:56:50 AM »

Flashhole and others,

You will never get anywhere with the Lee hater's. Just smile and nod your head like you do to your crazy aunt Lou Lou.

The reason other brands of loading equipment are so expensive is that some think just because it costs more it must be better... Life's too short to be blindly stubborn...

I think that if you are using a custom rifle or a rifle with a tight chamber, you are better off full sizing your brass and even going with the high dollar dies. But as Flashhole said, with rifles with generous chambers fire formed brass would make sense as being more accurate. And nobody can argue that you will get more life out of your brass if your just squeezing the neck instead of working it twice and pushing the case back just to have it expand back again.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2010, 05:15:40 AM »

Just so ya'll don't get the wrong impression, I'm not a Lee hater. I've bought many Lee Collet Dies and still have some. Some of them have been OK and some haven't. I have a Lee Classic Cast press which I like and I've even had Lee custom make me several factory crimp dies (which I think are the very best dies for bullet crimping) for several cartridges which I'll bet not many of you have done. I'm just saying, by my experience and evaluation, Lee stuff isn't quite as good as some think it is.

There has to be a reason Lee only offers a 2 year warranty on their stuff unlike other major die makers that offer a lifetime warranty. Oh yea, I forgot; Lee stuff is cheap.

wncchester · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2010, 10:33:14 AM »

"Are you telling me that never once has a case sized with a Lee Collet Die by you or your shooting associates left cases with necks so large bullets weren't held securely?"

I'm telling the world that's so, at least not because of the die itself; that's a case problem, not a die problem. As necks are worked by firing and sizing they get harder and that increases springback until the neck won't stay "sized" in a Lee collet die and the brass soon spits. The well known correction for hard necks is annealing. Anneal after every 4-6 reloads, as we should anyway, and we won't have large/loose necks no matter how they are resized.

"Have you never had to turn down the mandrel to get case necks sized enough?... By enough, I mean bullets were left so loose they could be seated or removed easily with ones fingers.

Sure, I have turned Lee collet mandrels down and also turned a few new ones on my old metal lathe just to try other sizes. What I've learned is that what Lee provides is about as good as it needs to be.

NO metal cylinder (bullet) sitting in a metal hole (neck) that's a thou smaller than it is will spin or be pulled with fingers; that just can't happen! It's possible, but not easy, to do it if they are exactly the same diameter, metallic moving parts virtually always have some bit of clearance or the parts will seize...

I drink no one's Kool-Aid, I am a "fan" of what works well no matter what color box it comes in.

flashhole · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2010, 11:54:54 AM »

chester wrote "I drink no one's Kool-Aid, I am a "fan" of what works well no matter what color box it comes in."

Can I have an HALLELUJAH ..... how about an AMEN brother! Truer words were never spoken for those of us in the handloading world.

I have Redding, Forster, Lyman, RCBS, Lee, Wilson, Ohaus, EJM, MTM, and even some Vickerman brand tools on my bench and they all serve a useful distinct purpose. I confess ... I am not a reloading equipment snob. If a particular brand tool works best for the intended purpose that's what I use.
The one ragged hole groups my guns shoot say I must be doing something right.