« previous next »
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Rem 45/70 prob.  (Read 3697 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Rem 45/70 prob.
« on: July 15, 2010, 05:12:44 PM »
just got a new box of 100 Rem .458 405gr JSP for my 45/70
my issue is that the cannelure is to far back from the nose of the bullet to get the OAL to 2.550 so it will function in my 1895

so I had some free time today and ran two little experiment at work cutting and trimming the bullets and I'm hoping to get some input from some of you with a lot more experience .
I have read that you can just install the bullet deeper the way it is but I'm not to sure about how well it will stay put without a groove or something .

basicly I want to know if this is a dumb idea.  ::)


left is the std bullet / center is with a new cannelure cut  / right is the modified bullet installed & crimped to 2.550 OAL


left is the std bullet / center one I trimmed some of the nose off so the std cannelure is in a useable location came out to 376gr / right installed & crimped 2.550 OAL


I have ran the rounds through the action and everything functioned just fine.

Logged

Offline wrongpaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2010, 05:43:08 AM »
Another option is a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Lee Factory Crimp Die:

Crimps the bullet in place more firmly than any other tool.
It is impossible to buckle the case as with regular roll crimp dies.
Trim length is not critical.
Tests demonstrate that even bullets which have no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Regards,
Wrongpaw
Logged
Regards,
Wrongpaw

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2010, 05:50:04 AM »
How close is the weight after you trim them?  I load mine at 2.540 and put a light crimp on the bullet.
Logged
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline J'hawker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2010, 01:17:25 PM »
That bullet has been that way for years.  I believe the cannelure is actually positioned for the 458 Win Mag.  For the 45-70, crimping on the ledge (a very slight shoulder in front of the cannelure) will keep the bullet from pulling back out.  Other than that, wrongpaw nailed it - the Lee FCD is the way to go.
Logged
Well done is better than well said....Benjamin Franklin

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 02:06:59 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on July 16, 2010, 05:50:04 AM
How close is the weight after you trim them?  I load mine at 2.540 and put a light crimp on the bullet.

Just got done checking the weight Swampman . I checked 5 of each

box stock  404.6gr - 402.4gr
grooved    401.3gr - 400.8gr
bullet nose cut to .870 OAL  375.0gr - 373.7gr

no worse then out of the box.

gona load a few up with some 3031 and see how they fly.


thanks for the help  :D
Logged

Offline encore4me

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 05:40:37 AM »
 I use a Lee factory crimp on all of mine with no problems.


Matt
Logged

Offline Austin1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 11:25:52 AM »
When was your Marlin made? My brother has a older Early 90s one still Micro grove and it works fine with the 405gr rem loaded and crimped in the first grove.
In my handi I had the chamber cut to Norma Basic brass length 2.8'' for the case I had the chamber cut so I could use the second canalure but thats in the single shot.
Logged
Walk softly and carry a big gun!

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
I'ts a new 1895GBL.
just like this one ;D


this is my first time reloading 405gr jacketed bullets for it.
if I crimp it in the top canelure the OAL is about 2.650 and that is way to long to funtion in the rifle. I could just seat the bullet deeper past the canalure & crimp it there to get the max OAL of 2.550 .
my only concern with doing that is without the canelure to hold the bullet and also being a tube feed mag. would it slip deeper into the case under recoil ?

just woundering if anyone else has had the same concern with the rem. 405s.
Logged

Offline Austin1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 05:10:04 PM »
Quote from: qwikrick on July 19, 2010, 02:03:33 PM
I'ts a new 1895GBL.
just like this one ;D


this is my first time reloading 405gr jacketed bullets for it.
if I crimp it in the top canelure the OAL is about 2.650 and that is way to long to funtion in the rifle. I could just seat the bullet deeper past the canalure & crimp it there to get the max OAL of 2.550 .
my only concern with doing that is without the canelure to hold the bullet and also being a tube feed mag. would it slip deeper into the case under recoil ?

just woundering if anyone else has had the same concern with the rem. 405s.
Seems od to me, but I really cant say being a newer gun I herd that they are more fussy than the older ones maybe it is true? but you would think the 405gr Rem bullet would be one of the most popular bullets to use as it must work in factory ammo too.
Logged
Walk softly and carry a big gun!

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 05:57:08 PM »
The Rem 405 is meant to be seated to the small groove above the top canelure, to reach proper OAL.

 If you use a proper expanding button, it works just fine. Look at a factory 405 round
Logged
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 06:43:11 PM »
I was looking at a 405gr factory round when I noticed this.   ???



looks like Remington did'nt only use the crimp to secure the bullet. or am I missing something.  ???
Logged

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 07:49:24 PM »
Remington used a light crimp and added the case canalure to prevent setback in a tube magazine. There is no substitute for neck tension. The old Winchester 400 gn round didn't use the case canalure.


Logged
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 08:28:28 AM »
I believe you will find the Remington loaded brass is a bit shorter than other .45-70 brass.

The Lee crimp is the way I went before I quit buying Remington 405g bullets in favor of 300 and 350g bullets.  The lighter bullets shoot flatter and still have plenty of the right stuff.
Logged
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline mauser98us

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
  • Gender: Male
  • 10 mm junkie and Whelan wacko
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 10:33:20 AM »
Might want to make up a couple dummies with the modified meplat. Cycle thru the action and make sure the flattened area does not get hung up during the feeding cycle
Logged

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2010, 04:56:02 PM »
The Remington 405s are worth whatever it takes to make them work.
Logged
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline tacklebury

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • Gender: Male
  • Central Michigan
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM »
Might take a look at these as well.  Rated well, although I haven't used them myself, and has a flatter point and higher crimp groove from appearance in the photo's.  I cannot imagine that you are going to get as consistent weight grinding yours flat as finding a bullet that is made to fit your gun.  Just a thought. ;)  I have had some good luck using the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my .45-70 to seat bullets slightly deeper.  Just be sure you account for the reduced capacity in your reloading.  8)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=448366
Logged
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline simplicity

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 12:46:56 PM »
If he turned the bullets on a lathe and kept the lengh the same the weight can be kept quite consistant. IE a 5c collet and a collet stop it could be kept accurate and be done quite quickly.
Logged

Offline tacklebury

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • Gender: Male
  • Central Michigan
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 02:33:10 PM »
Quote from: simplicity on July 30, 2010, 12:46:56 PM
If he turned the bullets on a lathe and kept the lengh the same the weight can be kept quite consistant. IE a 5c collet and a collet stop it could be kept accurate and be done quite quickly.

You are correct.  Personally, I'd find a bullet it liked better. ;)  I personally don't have tons of free time, so spending it turning down bullets to load wouldn't be my priority.  I found two my rifle loves and both shoot terrific, so I have a back-up available when stock runs short.  Certainly up to him though, he may have lots of tie to spare. 8)
Logged
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2010, 04:08:59 PM »
Quote from: simplicity on July 30, 2010, 12:46:56 PM
If he turned the bullets on a lathe and kept the lengh the same the weight can be kept quite consistant. IE a 5c collet and a collet stop it could be kept accurate and be done quite quickly.

yup thats it simplicity, 5c with a stop & a hardinge hand chucker and it goes realy fast. ( having access to a machine shop does have its advantages ! )

as for tackleburys ?
I did take a look at the bullets you recomended but the remingtons 405rg were about half the price and had plenty of possitive feedback on the midway sight from people useing them with a marlin in 45-70. also midway has been out of stock on those for some time.

box stock  404.6gr - 402.4gr
grooved    401.3gr - 400.8gr
bullet nose cut to .870 OAL  375.0gr - 373.7gr

no worse then out of the box.

I have not had a chance to test them out yet but I will get on it some time next week.
Logged

Offline tacklebury

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • Gender: Male
  • Central Michigan
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 12:59:28 PM »
Sweet, hope they shoot well for you.  8)  Guess I don't think about having access to lathes etc.  lol  If I do something like that I end up trying to make a fixture and do it with a file because I don't have access. ;)
Logged
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline qwikrick

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2010, 03:07:38 PM »
got a chance to test things out yesterday and I think it went well.
for a quick test I used a lee dipper to get 46gr of IMR 3031 & CCI #34 LRP in both rounds.
test was at 50 yards with a ammo bag for a rest & iron sights.

the bullets I cut a new crimping groove in shot no different then the ones I did'nt so that was good to know.
the ones cut to .870 OAL with a average of 374gr made about a 4-1/2 inch group with a noticable difference in recoil.  ;D

think I'll cut about 20 more so I can fine tune the load a little better.


Logged

Offline EsoxLucius

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 601
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 10:55:34 AM »
Crimping over the step above the two cannelures and using a compressed load works well.


Or use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Logged
We learn something new everyday whether we want to or not.

Offline Frank V

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2010, 01:11:43 PM »
I have used the Rem. .45-70 bullet in the mod. 95 for several years & just crimp over the shoulder. I've had no problems, they shoot accurately , I haven't gotten any game with them YET, this may be the year.
I've used them in two different .458s too & really like that bullet. Tinker till you get it, the bullet is worth it.
Frank
Logged
" U.S.A. RIDE FOR THE BRAND OR LEAVE!"

Offline StrawHat

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 03:04:29 AM »
Instead of shortening the bullet, you could shorten a few of the cases and dedicate them for use in the Marlin.
Logged
"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result"  Winston Churchill

"A law without a punishment is merely advice."  anonymous

Offline LONGTOM

  • Trade Count: (391)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Gender: Male
  • IF ONLY I COULD GO BACK-I WOULD BE A MOUNTAIN MAN!
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 06:20:37 AM »
You could buy a C&H canelure tool an put the grove anywhere you want.



LONGTOM
Logged
NRA Benefactor Life Member
NAHC Life Member
NRA Member-JAMES MADISON BRIGADE
IWLA Member
NRA/ILA Member
CCRKBA Member
US OLIMPIC SHOOTING TEAM supporter

"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
THOMAS JEFFERSON

That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline MePlat

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 601
Re: Rem 45/70 prob.
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 04:55:43 AM »
The simple approach is to use a pwder in a weight range that is somewhat compressed which will keep the bullet from receding into the case and crimp the bullet over the slight ledge in front of the bearing surface.  It will work as Buffalo Bore loads these and the 350 gr Speer bullet and with the Speer 350 he crimps above the crimp groove to make them short enough.
Try it before you try anything more complicated.  H4895 should work well.  Varget should too.
Logged
You Know Me.  I Don't Have a Clue
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »