Neck vs. FL resizing- difference in point of impact, all else being the same?

[RickC.]

Today I missed two easy shots at a doe, about 80 yards distant with my .30-30 Handi- shots were from a shooting house with the foreend rested on my gloved hand, which was resting on the windowsill.  Plenty of time to make the shots, I couldn't believe I had missed.

When I got back to the truck I noticed I had hunted with loads that had been neck sized, as opposed to my usual hunting loads that are FL sized.  Before leaving today, I went to the club range.  Just last Saturday I had replaced the Simmons shotgun scope with a Leupold M8 4X, and sighted in with the FL loads without a problem.  I was not even on the paper at 100 yds, and was nearly 5" left at 25.  The rifle had not been bumped, just taken home at put in the safe after the sight-in session, and taken to the woods this morning.

Now-- I have noticed differences in velocity (small) and pressure signs when testing neck vs. FL loads a time or two at the range in .308, .280, and 7.62x54, but I have not noticed any great change in point of impact.  An inch or so, at most.

I'm going to the range tomorrow with this .30-30 and you can bet I'll be double checking the mount and rings, as well as taking the other scope along to switch back if need be.  I think all that should be good and tight since I just mounted that scope and have been doing this for over 30 years now.

So there are two variables- a new (to me) scope, and neck sized rounds.  I'll be taking this one step at a time with the troubleshooting, but has anyone ever seen such a difference just from sizing the cases differently?


Thanks,

Rick

[gcrank1]

Bet you wouldnt have seen it happen if you had not changed scopes.
BTW, was the position and grip on the gun when you shot at the deer pretty close to the same as when you sighted in?

[yukondog]

Never necked sized lever rounds always FL, neck size bolt action and never seen that much change.

[trotterlg]

Neck sizing for a H&R is a bad plan with any round.  The action flexes enough that with some chamberings you cannot close the action on a fired round.  In your case, I am betting that the rifle locked up but did so on the case head which produced an inconsistant lockup and your inconsistant POI.  Full length size only in an Handi.  Larry

[necchi]

5"s at 25 is an awfull lot to be thinking there's a differance caused by sizing issues. Even a completely bent neck isn't going to cause that much change at 25.

[trotterlg]

It will if the cartridge is not allowing the rifle to fully lock up.  Larry

[necchi]

Amen to that, you entered your previuos post whilst I was type'n mine.

The chambers are all really big on ALL my handis, length wise, but the body on my 308 and 708 need a little bump. I have the dies set above the shell holder just a bit so they do just a bit more than a shoulder bump. Thought about getting a neck sizing die for the 223 but these aren't bench guns so I thought I'd buy powder instead,,

They DO need to lock up the same each time,,kinda important for the accuracy part.

[revbc]

I've had the same problem with a 7mm-08 that I tried to neck size for.  You just gotta bump the shoulder back a little to get a consistent lockup like Larry said.

[Sourdough]

Since I never neck size I can't say anything about this.  I always full length resize.  I have seven 30-06s, five .223s, two 45-70s, two 30-30s, two .35 Whelens, and two .350 Rem Mags.  I never know which gun I will decide to take, and I need all the ammo to fit into all guns of that caliber.

[briannmilewis]

Neck sizing for a H&R is a bad plan with any round.  The action flexes enough that with some chamberings you cannot close the action on a fired round.  In your case, I am betting that the rifle locked up but did so on the case head which produced an inconsistant lockup and your inconsistant POI.  Full length size only in an Handi.  Larry

Larry, I think you have just made another case for the RCBS X-Die. First time in 2 years on the forum I have read a definitive statement about FL sizing for Handis. Makes sense I guess when compared to a bolt action's strength. Is trouble free loading and ejection why full length sizing of Lever and Semi-Auto is considered best practice? I expect they too have action strengths like a bolt, and flexing is not an issue. So FL resizing has a number of purposes in different actions. Learn, learn, learn...it never ends here. Thanks Larry as usual for educating this member of the unwashed masses.:-)

[Sourdough]

One other point about Full Length resizing.  many times I go on extended hunts where someone loses their ammo, runs out of ammo.  Most of the people I hunt with all carry the same caliber gun so swapping ammo happens everyonce in a while.  If someone neck sizes then their ammo will not work in someone elses gun.

[RickC.]

Thanks for the comments, and I had not considered the issue of lockup with the Handi.  And yep, the rifles I have done the tests with were all bolt guns.

Interesting.

I'm still concerned about that scope though, hopefully I'll get a chance to wring it out tomorrow with FL sized handloads.


Rick

[cwlongshot]

You can check the scope by shooting five shots from a stable rest at fifty yards. With a one i ch grid 100yard site intarget, Aim at the center of the target shoot one shot. Remove adj caps, elevate twenty clicks. Fire again aiming at same point. Now move to the right twenty clicks, fire again. Again keeping same aimIng point. Now down twenty clicks, fire. Then to left twenty fire again. You are now back where you started. This should give you a square. Asuming of coarse your barrel is accurate enough to print at POA.
Something I have done for years reguardless of the scope is to "tap" the turret after any adjustments. It shouldn't be necessary. But if adjustments are sluggish it can save sanity. .

I agree FL sizing is a must do in a handi!!
Good luck,
CW

[RickC.]

I did make it back out to the rifle range yesterday.  When I went to the loading bench Saturday I only had 7 of the 125 Ballistic Tips left, but had nearly a whole box of Speer 150 BTSP, so at the risk of muddying the waters even further I loaded them instead since I had plenty of them and already had worked up an accurate load for them earlier this year.

 The first 3 shot group at 100 yds was 6" low, but dead center.  Hmmm...  I went ahead and sighted this load in 2 1/2" high and as the session went on the groups opened up a bit, but none was over 2".  Having done that, I let the barrel cool for 20 minutes and fired a 3 shot group with the neck sized 125 gr rounds, allowing for the difference in the scope setting.  Sure enough, they were all over the place, two in different corners of the target, and one about a foot to the left.  I shot another 3 shot group with the load I had just sighted in with after that, and they were right back where they should have been.

Just for grins I had picked up a box of Federal 150 gr loads while running Christmas errands at Walmart (hey, less than 12 bucks, why not?), and the point of impact was within an inch of my Speer handloads, though they were not as accurate-- but to be fair to the Federals, by the time I got around to shooting them I was running out of daylight and was not taking the time I should have to let the barrel cool.

This range has a 12" circular metal plate at 150 yards, and I dinged it 5 out of 5 times with two of those being the Federal factory loads.

Checking the scope with as CW suggested is a good idea, but this is an older Leupold with friction dials and I didn’t want to mess with that.

Many thanks to all for the comments and the info.  Very interesting lesson learned!

Rick

[cwlongshot]

You can also try my suggestion at home if you can solidly hold the rifle still and have a coliminator.

The latch and how it locks has SO much to do with accuracy in the handi!! Case in point, my new shorty maxi. I used a known accurate barrel but fit it to a different receiver, more because new to me, maxi barrel was too loose on this receiver. I prefer to fit by removing metal than fit with shims when ever possible. Now this barrel shot under an inch with my 180ssp and AA1680 powder. With The new receiver, it shot same load into about 2" but LO. 
I was shooting the 454 a couple weeks back when a couple of loads fouled the breech with soot. Must have not sealed the chamber. Anyhow it tarnished the latch and guess what? I began to get pop opens and POI changes!!! Same load minutes apart my groups moved!!!  I cleaned everything and the POI almost completely returned. The Latch and how it latches is EVERTHING with accuracy in a handi!

I'm convinced that a heavier spring on the latch with heavy kickers will help accuracy in these rifles.

CW

[gcrank1]

All good info that!
FWIW, for those having accuracy issues, while holding the gun empty, close your eyes, push the release while holding a little pressre on the latch and lug. You should be able to feel, and visualize, the retraction as at moves to release, and it should be a decently long engagement. Do this several times until you really have a sense of what is happening in there. If it never has more than a little retraction before releasing it may need some work.
This can be done with dykem, magic marker or 'smoke', but the method described is pretty valid  (and easy).

[briannmilewis]

CW: For those of us who have only a few years with the Handi on this forum, please expand on your post, "I'm convinced that a heavier spring on the latch with heavy kickers will help accuracy in these rifles." Are these things we can "self-smith" <-- A new word maybe? This sounds like some of that great "universal" info.

[cwlongshot]

CW: For those of us who have only a few years with the Handi on this forum, please expand on your post, "I'm convinced that a heavier spring on the latch with heavy kickers will help accuracy in these rifles." Are these things we can "self-smith" <-- A new word maybe? This sounds like some of that great "universal" info.

 Sure can! 

 If your firmilular with the innerworkings of the handi action. You will see the latch is held forward with a spring mounted in the trigger guard. its my opinion that this spring, being moved by the latch itself under the recoil of heavy kickers. I have a friend who is getting me some different weight springs to test this theory.

We all know the differences the lock up can make on this guns accuracy. If that latch is moving around its inconsistant, inconsistance leads to inaccuracy.

I have had one hornet for a couple years now, yet never shot it. I shot it last weekend. I was amazed at myself that I didn't knotice the poor lockup of this one from the factory! Guess what, as long as I snapped it closed each time I got sub 1" groups at 50 yards. When I simply closed it the groups opened to more then double. I was very careful and loaded it with Tims lilgun load and 35gr pills, holy cow its a near one hole shooter!! I'll refit this barrel and be sure I get full and even lockup across the entire latch and accuracy should be stabil without the need to consiously snap it closed. I have very carefully fit my 500 barrel, yet I still get a flyer with heavy loads. But my lite and med velocity lead bullet loads print nice round groups.

Hopefully my friend will come thru with some springs so I can test this.

Merry Christmas,
 CW

[quickdtoo]

Heavy latch springs have been covered before, there's a link in the FAQs titled Heavy Latch Springs on it, Fred has info on his website also. I've been using the McMaster-Carr springs for several years, every time I do a trigger job, the frame gets a new latch spring and a Wolff EP hammer spring, that's SOP. 

Tim

Got my springs today, the indicia on the package indicates they mailed it on Nov 1st, but 10 days from southern California by parcel post is not real, 5 days yes, I think they never took it to the PO to be mailed until much later. They also over paid postage on the 13oz package by at least $3.50 with $7.35 postage on the package, they apparently don't ship by mail often and use UPS, but I prefer mail to my po box, but I did offer them an alternative UPS street address, but they didn't use it. They could have mailed the 6 springs in a small padded envelope for less than a dollar and just threw it into their outgoing mail! They only charged $4 shipping so they really messed up.

The great news is the springs work great, I think 3 springs ~.600"-.575" long out of each piece will do the trick, any longer and the spring won't compress enough to release the barrel. As it is, it takes considerable strength to release it! That length works if the spring pocket bottom is squared up to a depth of .300", without doing that, the spring needs to be much shorter.

I did a trigger job on the frame while I was at it since I had never done one on it,  was 4½lbs which was just acceptable to me for a hunting rifle, now it's at 2lbs-6oz!!

Thanks Fazak!!

Tim

[cwlongshot]

THANKS TIM!!

 I MUST have read this, but don't remember... 

CW

[gcrank1]

+1 that!...my memory aint what I remember it bein'........

[cwlongshot]

I gotta say, McMaster Carr REALLY stepped up on the service since 2006!!!  I ordered the springs minutes before I posted in this thread last... I'm holding the package of springs as I write this....

HOPEFULLY, momma will allow me some time in my loading room this weekend!!!

CW

[torpedoman]

I use lee collet dies for my 223 handi and it is very accurate with them.