Author Topic: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts  (Read 2651 times)

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Offline encore3006

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Offline AndyHass

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 03:56:38 PM »
I'm not really surprised.  BH209 is, in fact, a smokeless powder.  In some states smokeless is illegal for ML season.  Is it such a stretch then, that they specificially mention BH209 as it is a smokeless powder specifically marketed for MLers?

Regarding the contentions on that link that more states should follow the stricter guidelines of western states -- there is a difference in purpose for ML seasons across states.  In the Midwestern staes the ML season is an extra population control tool, so sidelining the majority of hunters with stricter inclusion criteria would be counter-productive.  In western states where population control is not such an issue, it may make sense to use more restrictive guidelines.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 04:19:15 PM »
Another stupid unenforceable law.  We can't use smokeless here.
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Offline Busta

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 05:54:05 PM »
.........................BH209 is, in fact, a smokeless powder.......................

Andy,

Can you please point me to the fact? I must have missed that somewhere along the way over the last 3 years.
 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 06:11:58 PM »
If it's smokeless, how come it smokes?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline 1sourdough

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 01:22:13 AM »
 Since M-L hunting is often a one-shot deal, who's to know what's under your bullet, in the gun? Of course my speedloaders have 777 measured out. No is doesn't make sense to ban it, but there is plenty of company there.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 01:30:39 AM »


  In the Midwestern staes the ML season is an extra population control tool, so sidelining the majority of hunters with stricter inclusion criteria would be counter-productive. 

Since when is Blackhorn the powder powder of choice for the "majority of hunters" in the midwest? I personally don't know anyone who uses the stuff. And have only seen it on the shelf in one hardware store in my area. None of the gun shops/suppliers carry it here in southern Ia.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

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Offline sabotloader

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 01:48:08 PM »
Swampman

Smoke is added to the powder to make it more traditional as it is with T7...

Here is an independent chemical anaylsis of BH....

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 02:36:39 PM »
Correct but if there's smoke, then it isn't smokeless.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline sabotloader

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 03:04:41 PM »
Swampman

Quote
Correct but if there's smoke, then it isn't smokeless.

Correct, but with that logic you could just add smoke to any smokeless powder and call it non-smokeless...

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Busta

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 11:04:16 PM »
Sabotloader,

Would you please cite that independent analysis? Anyone can say anything they want, doesn't mean it is correct or true.

Actually Blackhorn 209 is not a "smokeless powder", it is classified as a "Propellant, Solid UN 0499". Triple Se7en, Pyrodex, American Pioneer, Shockey's Gold, and other BP substitutes also all fall under this same classification.

Smokeless Powder is classified as "Powder, Smokeless UN 0161".

The regulatory authorities who determine the classification of energetic materials are The Explosives Bureau and Canadian Energy Research Laboratories. They have determined the classification of Blackhorn 209 to be US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID, UN 0499.


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Offline sabotloader

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 05:15:10 AM »
Busta

Quote
Actually Blackhorn 209 is not a "smokeless powder", it is classified as a "Propellant, Solid UN 0499". Triple Se7en, Pyrodex, American Pioneer, Shockey's Gold, and other BP substitutes also all fall under this same classification.

The regulatory authorities who determine the classification of energetic materials are The Explosives Bureau and Canadian Energy Research Laboratories. They have determined the classification of Blackhorn 209 to be US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID, UN 0499.

Totally agree the classification has been made as you describe. But the fact is it is still a Nitro based powder as any regular smokeless powder is.  In fact Triple Seven is a smokeless powder but it is not Nitro based.  You can request a MSDS for and read that part yourself.  Western will not give you one but, with the 'freedom of information act' you can get one from the manufacturer.  This also implies why General Dynamics makes the powder in Canada and not here in the US.  Rules and laws are so much different in Canada.

The article this chemical information was taken from is available on line - I will have to find it again but it was composed by a writer that submitted the powder to a chemical analysis here in the US.  + just open the lid and take a smell you can smell the solvent or ether from the Nitro.

The only question I have is whether it is Nitro Cell or Nitro Esters.

And of all the people in the world I would think you would have figured this out a long time ago.  For my part it really does not matter.  It is built and manufactured as a ML powder substitute.  But, for those that it does matter and the states that have their own ruling sytem they can make their own decisions.

Here is another part of the article:

Yes, a tech advisor at Hodgdon told me that. I called to see if they were working on a product to compete with the BH209. (I am a FFL dealer)
The first thing out of his mouth was "you know thats smokeless, right ?"
He also said Hodgdon had several oportunities to market it but chose not to. He said they were not satisfied with test results they had with it. I opened a container of BH209 I recently obtained to test in my NEF and Savage. I must admit the sniff test is like smokeless. You reloaders know what I mean..the solvent smell..

After that call I had western powders fax me a MSDS on BH209.
The main component is Nitrate ester. I did some research on explosives then. My take on this is that nitrate ester is a "general" or "group" term of certain explosives. This type of explosive includes Dynamite, Nitroglycerine, RDX, C4, PETN, Semtex H, Nitrocellulose and smokeless powder.
I think marketing BH209 was a good idea. I have not tested it yet in my guns but from what results some others on this forum have had, I am expecting good results.



Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Busta

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 02:24:28 PM »
What makes you think I haven't got it figured out? I asked for FACTS, not supposition, haven't seen any yet. There have been lots of products made that contain cellulose nitrate, what you call nitrocellulose (plastic, dice, film, pick guards to name a few), that doesn't make them all smokeless powder now does it? Just an example.

I know exactly what the MSDS says! I know it has been officially classified as US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID UN 0499 by the regulating authorities, AND I know it isn't POWDER, SMOKELESS UN 0161, period.

Still waiting on Andy. Just the facts please!
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Offline Bullseye

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2010, 02:26:53 PM »
Might want to check the definition of smokeless powder Swampman.  It refers to the ingrediants it is made of.  It does smoke less than the blackpowder, but it does still smoke.  Shoot a double barrel shotgun and break it open and blow down the barrel.  smoke will come out the end of the barrel.

Offline sabotloader

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2010, 03:24:39 PM »
What makes you think I haven't got it figured out? I asked for FACTS, not supposition, haven't seen any yet. There have been lots of products made that contain cellulose nitrate, what you call nitrocellulose (plastic, dice, film, pick guards to name a few), that doesn't make them all smokeless powder now does it? Just an example.

I know exactly what the MSDS says! I know it has been officially classified as US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID UN 0499 by the regulating authorities, AND I know it isn't POWDER, SMOKELESS UN 0161, period.

Still waiting on Andy. Just the facts please!

I really figured you did know exactly what it was and how it is made, but that does not change the basic fact.
Those other items you mention, I do not think shooting craps with dice results in the same pressures that shooting powder does.  In fact I can think of one of those items that might even be explosive or even a propellant.  Kinda makes you wonder how much it cost General Dynamics to manipulate the goevernment definitions - happens everyday.

Still no matter what you say it is still a 'smokeless progressive burning powder' just as any other IMR powder Accurate or any other brand of smokeless powder.

And as I have said it was engineered and manufactured to be a ML sub powder but the fact is it is a Nitro based powder.  And I agree that is has been classified as a propellent.

All of this had nothing to do with what the powder is made of.
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Busta

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 08:05:41 AM »
Andy must have went on a vacation? ;)
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Offline Busta

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2010, 10:51:24 AM »

I talked to Mark Gruber of New Mexico Department of Game and Fish today on the phone. You will be pleased to know that Blackhorn 209 is a legal propellant once again in New Mexico for the Muzzleloader Season and Restricted Muzzleloader Season.

He claimed that he was given the bad information from someone who had retired. Must have been a "lame duck"?

They have the new online rules and information on the website. It says that printed copies will be available soon, just hope they got the information to the printer.

The online version has blacked out Blackhorn 209, and I was assured that it is indeed LEGAL, see page 6.


http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/publications/documents/rib/2011/2011-2012_Big_Game_RIB_Optimized.pdf
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Offline kctibs

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Re: Blackhorn 209 Illegal in New Mexico in 2011 Hunts
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2010, 04:36:24 PM »
Since M-L hunting is often a one-shot deal, who's to know what's under your bullet, in the gun? Of course my speedloaders have 777 measured out. No is doesn't make sense to ban it, but there is plenty of company there.

A game warden has several ways to find out what's under your bullet besides shooting it out.
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