MOA am I understanding this?

[Ultra25-06]

Ok I have been shooting for a few years now but have never tried to understand this. I have always just sighted in my firearm and compensated, sometimes succesfull somtimes not. I now find myself wanting to try by dialing for range and I figure this would be a good place to start asking for help.

So lets say in a perfect world we will use a 25-06rem 120gr cl exp load, a 24" barrel, scope with 1/4 MOA and specs from the remington website.
100.00   200.00   300.00   400.00   500.00    yds
1/4------1/2------3/4------1--------1 1/4   scope moa???
---------0.00-----7.2------21.4-----44.10   trajectory
------------------9.60-----21.40----35.28   divided???
------------------10.00----21.00----35.00   clicks rounded to nearest???

Am I understanding this? If not please explain. If so I am thinking that a actual chart will need to be made based on a average fps of my load and gun due to diffrent barrel length and the plain fact that every gun and load can behave diffrently. And then shoot at those ranges to verify. So does the use of a variable zoom affect this and to how much lets say in a 3x9x40 and what setting do you use to sight in with is it the setting you wold most commonly use or max magnification?

[Ultra25-06]

30 plus view and no resonse??? Just looking for some help understanding

[kynardsj]

While I may not answer all your questions I'll put my 2 cents in anyway. Cranking your scope up to a higher power should not affect where your bullet hits. If it does then something is wrong with the scope. The next part will take a lot of shooting. If you shoot XXX brand bullets in this 25-06 and that's all you shoot in it then true it in at lets say 100 yards. Dead center bullseye. Then shoot it at 200 yards. If you want a 200 yard zero then adjust the elevation on the scope. Shoot 100 yards again and you shouldn't be more than an inch or so high with a 25-06. Now it's time for that paper and something to write with. Move your target out to 300 yards. See what your drop is at that range. If your scope has BDC or mildot crosshairs it's time to go to the first one below the centerline and see where you're hitting. If you have a scope with target turrets and want to aim dead on then adjust the elevation. Most scopes have 1/4 click adjustments for 100 yards. Each 100 yards past that increases the amount. 200 yds= 1/2 in, 300 yds= 3/4 in, 400 yds= 1 in and 500 yds would be one click equals 1 1/4 inches. All clicks up must come back down so write down the number of clicks that put you on at the different distances so you can come back to a closer zero. I see long range shooters with their number of clicks written down on an index card that has been laminated and then taped to their stock. Unless you're an excellent judge of distance you'll need a rangefinder. Even a flat shooting round like a 25-06 is starting to drop out past 300 yards so If I wanted to be precise I would find my clicks for 350 and 450 yards too. If I were getting into longrange shooting this is how I would do it. Also a high quality, higher powered scope would be nice for this type of shooting. Hope this helps.

[MePlat]

Your given secnario is correct.  Provided the clicks are actually .25" and your drop is as stated.

[kynardsj]

Some of your high end target scopes may have 1/8 inch click adjustments. No problem with those as you just refigure things for 1/8 inch instead of 1/4. Some say 1/4 inch and may be a little more. Just a shoot, adjust and see what happens sort of thing. My longest shot was 280 yards on a whitetail. That was back in my 7 mm magnum days and my scope was trued in at 1 inch high at 100 yards. Same as I do with all my scopes. I just held a little high on her shoulder, not too much but a little. I have a friend that owns 400 acres next to the river that has fields that go on forever. A few years ago I watched a buck chase a doe at 900 yards and the field went on at least another 100 past that. That's when I just say dang what a buck, hope another comes out a bit closer.

[Ultra25-06]

Your given secnario is correct.  Provided the clicks are actually .25" and your drop is as stated.

Thank you. At least im on the right track. Now just need to get home and do some testing.

[kyhareraiser]

 i may be wrong in this statement ,but on high magnification scopes the higher you set the zoom ,even you just breating hard,or your heartbeat rate could knock your shot off a lot..reason i know this,i have a friend who shoots a lot and at long ranges too.well ,one day our group went and was planning a shooting day at the range. another guy that does'nt even shoot with us wanted to go and watch so we agreed to let him tag along.after watching a few rounds he was bragging and boasting how he could out shoot us all with our own guns (he did'nt bring one). i let him shoot mine ,and he did pretty good ,but when it came to the other two shooters ,they let him shoot but they cranked the power all the way up ,well he could'nt even get close to the bullseye.after we all got home and was unloading ,i ask the others why their guns did'nt shoot right (because i knew they wer right on target)they just looked at each other and smirked then laguhed and said thathigh as they had the scopes zoomed even a nerve twiching would put you off 2 to 3 inched at that power..i personally think they were afraid he was right all along about beating them..it's just shootin' to me

[SharonAnne]

the misalignment of crosshairs to target caused by breathing or pulse is NOT increased at higher magnification. It is just more APPARENT. It is still there at lower power magnification. Don't let them fool you on that one.

[skarke]

MOA is an acronym for minute of arc, or 1/60th of one degree.  It is very close math that 1 MOA equals 1 inch at 100 yards, but that is just a gift from God that it works out that way.

When calculating long shots with a 1/4 MOA click scope, you are correct in that 1 click will equal about 1 inch at 400 yards, roughly.  However, if you crank a regular old scope 30 clicks to compensate 30 inches drop at a given cartridge to hit dead on, you'll be sorry.  Most scopes, except for a few exceptions, won't take kindly to that kind of adjustment.

There are sniper scopes that are designed for this.

Really, you might be better off with a good Mil Dot scope, and use a range finder and the dots, FWIW, IMHO.

Hope this helps.

[trotterlg]

Correct about the clicks results, unless you pay big bucks, 10 clicks up will likely give you something like 8 clicks up and two clicks left, or 12 up and 3 right etc.  Very sledom will you get exactly what you click in.  Larry

[Dennis 6.5]

OK, 1 click equals 1" @ 400yds . . .

1 click @ 600 yds equals ?

[mattmillerrx]

I am on my phone at the moment, a link is not possible.  Goggle best of the west.  There is a calculator on this tv show website that you can plug in you known data and your estimated date and get an idea of how many inches and how many clicks you need for long ranges.  This will need testing to verify and your clicks will likely not be perfect as discussed, but this should give you a good idea.  Next google MOA formula and you can calculate this stuff for what ever range you want with known data.  Good luck and have fun shooting long range.  Once you get a feel for it you may want to invest in some equipment and a scope that can handle the adjustments for long range.  For me it is enough just to twist up and make a few more adjustments as needed.  But I am not serious about it just doing it for fun.

[Hank08]

Dennis 6.5, you've probably figured this out by now but 1 click at 600 would be 1 1/2", 700- 1 3/4" 800- 2". It's simply multiplying the 1/4"
6 quarter inches is 1 1/2" and accurate adjustments are one of things you pay for in a hi dollar scope and hope you get.
H08

[Dennis 6.5]

Simple enough, thanks!

[Blackhawker]

...... if you crank a regular old scope 30 clicks to compensate 30 inches drop at a given cartridge to hit dead on, you'll be sorry.  Most scopes, except for a few exceptions, won't take kindly to that kind of adjustment.

Answer to this problem:
Get yourself a big bore rifle and mount a vernier sight on it.  You can click up and down, left and right all day long if you like!   

On a serious note: if one doesn't have a rangefinder and a given target at what is thought to be 400 yards away is actually 300 yards, and error of a four or five clicks on the scope will literally make you several inches off of your target.  It would seem to me that unless one is professionally trained, has the time and place to practice day after day, or grew up on this type of shooting (400 + yards) it's really just guess-work.

[84Jim]

Correct about the clicks results, unless you pay big bucks, 10 clicks up will likely give you something like 8 clicks up and two clicks left, or 12 up and 3 right etc.  Very sledom will you get exactly what you click in.  Larry

No matter how many bucks you drop on a scope, 2 things gotta happen for 10 clicks up to equal 10 clicks up...the scope has to be mounted with the cross hairs perfectly vertical with the axis of the bore and the rifle held perfectly level.  As hard as we humans can try, neither of the two are probably ever exact especially when taken together.  Any tilt in the gun or scope is going to throw a horizontal component into an elevation change and visa versa.

One way to check it out is to determine your "no wind zero".  Shoot at a target at 100 yds. with a vertical line drawn thru the center on a calm day.  Crank up your elevation for various ranges and measure the horizontal offset in inches (minutes) for each range.  If you remember those windage measurements, you can dial in the windage at the same time you change your elevation.

[wyohandi]

if your scope is square and level with your bore you wont have any horizontal movement with a good scope
IF you use an anti-cant device (a necessity) Canting your rifle 6 degrees thats 1 minute on your watch dial
will throw you off by feet not inches at long range, and unless your shooting at a plumb line I bet you'll never
see the scopes tilted without a anti-cant device.
MOA's not hard to figure (click value x range= MOA) but its easy to screw up one scope with 1/8 one with 1/4 switch back and forth a couple times bullets flying everywhere. I have a card with click values            per 100yds all the way to 2000yds with each gun I always hated fractions!  We use to shoot alot write down a little, started keeping track of every shot and 1st shot hits are alot more frequent, now if someone would turn off that wind.

[chipsoles]

Hello,
 The ability to come reasonably close, when estimating extended ranges, can be acquired over time. As you walk any place, look at specific points in the distance, and take a guess at the distance. Then step the actual distance to the selected point. As you repeat this process, the brain and eyes will learn what
each distance looks like. You will also need to verify the actual length of your stride, in comparison to a true yard. With practice, 400yds. is not a great problem to range accurately.
Regards,
Bob

[helotaxi]

No matter how many bucks you drop on a scope, 2 things gotta happen for 10 clicks up to equal 10 clicks up...the scope has to be mounted with the cross hairs perfectly vertical with the axis of the bore and the rifle held perfectly level.

The alignment of the crosshairs is irrelevant, the alignment of the scope elevation mechanism is what matters.  Truly good scopes will have the crosshairs perfectly aligned with the mechanism one every scope that makes it to a consumer.  There are very few brands that produce truly good scopes.  In this regard (as well as others), Leupold is not one of those brands.

[skarke]

Many scope manufacturers make multiple lines of scopes.  In BR, you'll still see many Leupold 36x.  These are truly fine scopes, and relatively cheap at $999.  The Weaver 36x for less than half if a bargain.  Nearly as contrasty, with a good mechanism.  One can spend more or less than this range, it just depends on the demands he has for his equipment.

FWIW, it is the rare bird indeed that can take advantage of the image superior optics to those found on a BR competition line might provide.

[jmayton]

No matter how many bucks you drop on a scope, 2 things gotta happen for 10 clicks up to equal 10 clicks up...the scope has to be mounted with the cross hairs perfectly vertical with the axis of the bore and the rifle held perfectly level.

The alignment of the crosshairs is irrelevant, the alignment of the scope elevation mechanism is what matters.  Truly good scopes will have the crosshairs perfectly aligned with the mechanism one every scope that makes it to a consumer.  There are very few brands that produce truly good scopes.  In this regard (as well as others), Leupold is not one of those brands.

helotaxi, I've got to disagree with you here.  If the scope is not level or the rifle not held level when fired, the cant will cause whatever vertical adjustments are made to drift horizontally in relation to the bore.  Basically POI and POA no longer match up.  Everything has to be level for the adjustments to work correctly. . .but you are rght, you need a good scope with good mechanicals to acheive this.

[helotaxi]

No matter how many bucks you drop on a scope, 2 things gotta happen for 10 clicks up to equal 10 clicks up...the scope has to be mounted with the cross hairs perfectly vertical with the axis of the bore and the rifle held perfectly level.

The alignment of the crosshairs is irrelevant, the alignment of the scope elevation mechanism is what matters.  Truly good scopes will have the crosshairs perfectly aligned with the mechanism one every scope that makes it to a consumer.  There are very few brands that produce truly good scopes.  In this regard (as well as others), Leupold is not one of those brands.

helotaxi, I've got to disagree with you here.  If the scope is not level or the rifle not held level when fired, the cant will cause whatever vertical adjustments are made to drift horizontally in relation to the bore.  Basically POI and POA no longer match up.  Everything has to be level for the adjustments to work correctly. . .but you are rght, you need a good scope with good mechanicals to acheive this.

I think you misunderstood what I said.  The aiming point on a scope is the intersection of two lines.  The alignment of those lines is not relevant to the scope tracking correctly, in fact a simple dot is theoretically adequate.  People get fixated on leveling the crosshairs relative to the rifle when mounting the scope but alignment of the scope mechanism is what allows the scope adjustments to track correctly, not the crosshairs.  There are scopes out there where the crosshairs and the mechanism are not square with each other.  If one always mounts the scope with the mechanism square to the rifle, the alignment of the crosshairs and the mechanism become irrelevant.  The scope will always track correctly assuming the rifle itself is level.  If the rifle is canted, all bets are off about everything, but that has nothing to do with scope mounting and everything to do with mounting the rifle and using proper shooting technique.  If the scope mechanism, we already discussed why the crosshairs themselves don't matter, is not mounted level in relation to the rifle you cannot rely on the elevation or windage adjustments to track as designed even if the rifle itself is perfectly level.  Having the scope mechanism mounted cockeyed has the same effect as canting the rifle when adjustments are being made.

[jmayton]

helotaxi, I'm a visual person, so I'm trying to visualize this in my head.  If I understand you correctly, if I have a scope that has crosshairs and mechanism (the mechanical aparatus that moves the crosshairs) not square, then when I make 10 vertical clicks I may also get some horizontal movement as well?  That doesn't seem reasonable.  If I have a crosshair that is perfectly vertical with the rifle and I move 10 vertical clicks, the POA (the intersection of the crosshairs) will move along that vertical line.  Now if my scope is not that accurate, my 10 clicks may or may not be the distance I expect them to be, but they will still travel along that perfect vertical line.

I may still be misunderstanding what you're saying, but the end result in mechanical scope adjustment is optical, not mechanical, so the optical part must be square and level in relation to the rifle for the mechanical adjusment to do its job.

[helotaxi]

The end result is optical, but the movement within the optical path of the reticule is entirely mechanical.  The reticules in most scopes these days are simply a round piece of glass with the reticule etched into it.  It is installed into the mechanism but is not an integral part of it.  As such it is possible for it to be installed crooked in relation to the mechanism and this is really difficult to detect and almost impossible to detect if you mount the scope by leveling the rifle and then using a plumb line to level the reticule.  The bottom of the shoulder area of every scope I own is flat and the mechanism is always square to that flat.  That flat therefore (or the top of the elevation turret if it is flat) makes an excellent reference point to make sure that the scope is square to the action.  The scope tracks in relation to the mechanism, not the reticule.  The reticule could be an X instead of a + or even a dot and that will have no impact on the scope tracking.  Think about a red dot optic.  How does it track?

I'll try to explain it slightly differently and visually.  Imagine the reticule crosshairs and picture them perfectly plumb.  Now overlay a second set of crosshairs that represent the scope mechanism.  Now picture the second set of x-hairs rotated 15deg (an exaggeration compared to the misaligned scopes I've been informed of).  Since this represents the mechanism, it represents the travel of the reticule when you make an adjustment.  As you can imagine if the scope is installed such that it tracks at an angle related to the rifle, dialing elevation or windage is nearly impossible. 

Burris and Leupold are the two brands that I've heard about the most problems with.  Leupold apparently considers 4deg off acceptable (hardly!) and won't do anything about it based on several different problems I've heard about.  Nightforce, for example, has a zero tolerance standard on this issue.  If the difference between the mechanism and the reticule is detectable it is considered defective and is replaced.  Of course this is one of their QC checks before it ships.

[jmayton]

Ok, so do the vertical and horizontal adjustments move independently of one another, or is it simply a + that moves together?  Because if it is the latter then I completely understand what you say.  But if they move independently, then a vertical movement would have no horizontal drift optically.

btw, I level my scopes mechanically using the flat of the elevation turret, but visually check the level of the reticle to make sure the scope is as it should be.

[helotaxi]

If you were to crack open a modern scope you would find a piece of glass in the optical path with the reticule etched on it.  The whole "+" moves as a unit.  If it didn't, reticules that were more complex than a simple fine crosshair would never work.

[jmayton]

Ok, now we're on the same page. . .I get what you're saying.  Thanks for the clarification.  And I hadn't thought about how separate movements would affect mil-dot, ballistic, or other ranging/compensation reticles.  Makes sense.

[helotaxi]

So after this discussion I go to the range last week with a new project rifle with a new scope.  When I mounted the scope I was careful to level the mechanism (I thought) with the rifle and I installed an anti-cant level as well.

Get her to the range and plop her down on the bench.  Scope level looks good, so I settle in behind the rifle and look through the scope.  what in the world?!?!  The cross hairs are noticeably canted to one side.  I was miffed.  I was thinking that I was going to have to send the scope in for waranty work and deal with that headache (though since that particular scope was just replaced with an "upgraded" version I might have gotten a better scope out of the deal, but that's beside the point).  Anyway, I zero the rifle, fuming the whole time, and check the rifle out.  She's a shooter!

I get home and check out the scope situation.  Clamp the rifle in the bench vise and level it and, OK, the anti-cant level is off a little bit.  My fears are being alayed somewhat.  Then I put the level on the elevation turret and it's off even more.  Deep cleansing breath.  I search the house to find another level to eliminate the need to move levels back and forth and run the risk of something shifting without my knowledge and get the rifle/scope alignment spot on and then align the anti-cant level.  All is happy in the gun collection again.  Now I just need to get this one out on the range and get a load nailed down and shoot the crap out of it.