Author Topic: Martini question (Read 3184 times)

polara426sh · « **on:** March 13, 2010, 07:05:54 AM »

Is the Martini action strong enough to handle a 219 Donaldson Wasp? I've been thinking about maybe trading one of my other rifles for a Martini action and re-barreling it. Before I end up sinking too much time and money on something that wouldn't be feasible, I'd like to know if the Martini would be suitable for this.

Frank46 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2010, 05:54:39 PM »

Which size martini you referring to?. The large martini action was converted to 303 british and that runs about 45K. The cadet martini has been used for 30-30, 32 win special 7-30 waters among a few. Frank

polara426sh · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2010, 06:56:20 AM »

I'm not sure, I don't have an action yet. The 219 is based on the 30-30 case.

Frank46 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2010, 06:23:58 PM »

I've seen one large frame 577/450-303 british converted to 219 zipper. The smaller cadet martini or either the 12/15 which was a 22rf caliber can be converted to center fire. The 12/15 action as mentioned is slightly thicker than the cadet. Which means you can use a heavier barrel but both share the same 3/4" barrel tennon. Some really nice rifles have been made out of any of the actions mentioned. Frank

Hank08 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2010, 05:42:40 AM »

I used to have a rolling block in .219 D.W. no problems. I have 2 large Martinis, one in .219
improved zipper and one in .225 Winchester, i think they are stronger than the rolling block.
The .219 improved is like a larger Wasp. The original case was a 30/30 but .219 imp. or .219 DW can be made from .225 win. rim is a little smaller but presents no problem.
H08

gcrank1 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2010, 02:10:55 PM »

You might want to check out the 'British Militaria Forums', lots of good info and people!
Your question will be answered by those who intimately know the Martini and its capabilities.
FWIW, dont be fooled by some of these 'Nepal' imports of late. They wont take it.

Frank46 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2010, 06:06:09 PM »

I'll second the info posted by gcrank1. In fact go for the mark IV as it was the latest ones made. And beware of the kyber pass copies as the metal is highly suspect and definitely not what you are looking for. Frank

kombi1976 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2010, 01:48:15 AM »

You COULD fit one of these into a Cadet action (small frame) but the tick is making sure which ever case you use is slopey enough to get in.
Remember 310 Cadet OAL is about 1.75" in length.
Even the Henry's have a case length limit of around 2.5", perhaps a little more.
225 Win is an effective chambering for Cadets.
I suppose you have to ask whether you need 4000fps or if you'll be just as happy with 3600fps.
The bottom line is most of the rimmed high powered small bores are based on 30-30 or 25-35, which is an adapted 30-30 case too.
30-30 can fit into a Cadet action but it's a close fit.
These actions were designed more for short mid bore cals rather than long small bores.
I have 2 Cadets - a sporterised one in 25-20 with a custom laminate stock and a Sportco Martini Hornet factory conversion in 22 Hornet.
Both are great cartridges for this action.
As to the big actions I'd not be wasting their size on a small bore.
They're great for the 45-70 and 38-55 derivatives, not to mention 303 British.
But which ever action you use remember the firing pins must be modified and the holes sleeved.
Also remember that the upper limit of you experimentation should be no more than 45,000 CUP as this was the max for 303 Brit.
The actions, under ideal conditions, are capable of more than 60k and Cadet actions were tested to this during the early 1960s.
But most are approaching 100yrs old now and most had cast breech blocks.
The Martinis converted to 303 British had new forged breech blocks or the breech face was machined off and a new forged one fitted with a smaller diameter firing pin.
Plus their primary extraction is weak and high pressures just make extraction even harder.
To be completely honest I think a lot the benefit that can be got from Martinis is by chambering them to lever action cartridges and then using spitzers and heavier charges because many of the old lever guns are limited to under 40,000 CUP.

N.B. The guys on British Militaria forums are a good bunch and seriously know their stuff.
But they don't suffer fools and have short shrift for people pulling apart old Henrys to use the action, even Henrys which are not shooting well.
It's a collectors forum and while they shoot their guns preservation is important to them.
All I'm saying is tread carefully.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2010, 06:15:38 AM »

Quote from: kombi1976 on April 23, 2010, 01:48:15 AM

Very informative. Thanks Kombi... I love martini's... the rifles are nice too...

kombi1976 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2010, 06:50:45 AM »

No sweat, mate.
I love Martinis too.
I just wish there were simple ways to overcome their design flaws.
They have 4 main flaws - metalurgy, vertical ejection, cartridge length limitations and a restriction to rimmed cartridges.
That means that because of their age the metal used in them means they have to be limited to lower pressures.
The vertical ejection makes scope mounting difficult and unfortunately scout scopes look rubbish on them.
A blued scope right above the breech with medium eye relief might look ok but you'd have to make it a pistol style scope that had no bells sorta like the redot sights.
The rimmed cartridge rule, especially for the big frames, cuts you out of all of the best modern cartridges.
And the length limitation means cartridges like the Nitro Expresses which are rimmed AND low pressure are much of the time too long!
Truth is it suits all of the cartridges of its own period the best.
That means 45-70, 38-55, the various 50 cal BP rounds and their variations (45 and 50 Alaskan), 303 British and, obviously, 577/450.
If you REALLY want to create a moose/buffalo hammer find a Martini Enfield (modified breech face), spin a modern .458" bbl onto it chambered to 577/450 and go chasing some firm smokeless charges with modern drawn brass like Bertrams.
The case is MASSIVE.
I reckon it has as much room or more than the 450/400 cases I have.
Make you powder slow burning and keep in mind that the larger case head puts big backthrust on breech and there's no reason why you couldn't have a safe 577/450 that is up to Africa.
You'll have to tread carefully and not stress the action but I reckon it would eclipse most 45/70 loads without any trouble and you can use whichever 45 cal rifle bullets you like.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2010, 06:54:01 AM »

And in the US be prepared to pay something like $4.50 + per stick of .577/450 brass.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2010, 07:10:31 AM »

Fair call.........it's AUD$6.70 here last time I looked.

Hank08 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2010, 03:05:29 PM »

Kombi, not completely limited to rimmed. I have one made by Wesley Richards in 30/06. The ejector has a spring loaded piece that snaps into the extractor grove on a rimless case. I've also seen these on the small Martinis for the .223 cases. I think the small rimless extractors were made in Australia.
H08

kombi1976 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2010, 07:36:03 PM »

I am aware of rimless extractors for Cadet/small frame Martinis but I've never seen them for Henrys or Enfields.
I'd be darned careful using a cartridge like 30-06 in a large frame Martini too.
Often max loads approach 60,000 psi and factory ammo in particular pushes it to the limit.
Anything you can't kill with a 303 Brit is unlikely to inconvenienced by an '06.
I'd have to say that it rates as unwise to chamber a rimless case designed for a early 20th century Mauser type bolt action in a late 1870s single shot designed for blackpowder cartridges with wrapped brass, whatever the action's technical strength may be.
As I posted previously the breech block had to be modified to use 303 which has a 45,000 CUP max so imagine the revisions and improvements needed to bump it up to 60,000 CUP plus.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2010, 05:09:02 AM »

And as sound a design as any of the best were, they did not have the final word on the science of steel alloys or how the steels they used would fatigue over time. I would not like to be the one who finds the (literally) breaking point to be now.

Rangr44 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2010, 06:07:30 AM »

JMO, but a Cadet in .225 Winchester would make a darn fine varminter/sporter - and I'd even like to try one in .256 Winchester !

.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2010, 07:12:44 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on May 09, 2010, 05:09:02 AM

And as sound a design as any of the best were, they did not have the final word on the science of steel alloys or how the steels they used would fatigue over time. I would not like to be the one who finds the (literally) breaking point to be now.

Exactly.....what he said. $:-\$

As to 225 or 256 Win, both are eminently suitable in a Cadet.
The difference is that they are small cartridges with minimum back thrust, even at higher pressures.
Besides, the Cadet is at least 20yrs younger and 20yrs further ahead in alloy technology.
You can almost feel the differences in the steel when handling the 2 different actions.

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2010, 01:04:35 AM »

Oh Lord, I just HATE to read this thread

. 40 years ago I had purchased a Cadet Martini that had been converted to .225 Winchester (paid the UNGODLY sum of 50.00US). Shot it for about 2-3 years as my major woodchuck gun. Had a little over 250 woodies to its' credit. That little rifle would hold .5MOA all afternoon and into the next day shooting. OH, and don't even talk about balance and trim. It was toooo cute and pretty to be soooo deadly lethal. Ya'll know how the story goes---Young, Dumb and (Insanely Retardedly) STUPID

Yah, I had to have one of the new super LoudenBoomer's to play with. So I traded it in for 60.00 US against the LoudenBoomer. Oh, Lord, what I would give to have that little gem back now. Any one wear a size 17 or 18 boot that they can place up my butt? one of the biggest damn mistakes I have ever made in my life. Much worse than either of my 2 ex's! They weren't as dependable as that little rifle! (and much lighter to carry)

ETA: had to wipe the tears off of the keyboard

chigger · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:28:13 PM »

Yup, they are strong enough. I have a .219 on a martini action. Send me a message with an email address and I'll send some photos your way

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:55:44 PM »

GOF, aint it so!, those good ones that 'got away'. The good news is there are still some out there, the bad news is those prices are gone forever.

torpedoman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2010, 05:17:19 PM »

several "experts" rate the martini as the strongest single shot action made.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2010, 05:06:29 AM »

Other experts, while concurring that the design is quite sound, find the metalurgy of 100 yr old castings designed for BP or pistol pressure cartridges dubious.
If you are talking the Cadets then bushing the firing pin hole and strengthening the pins will make an action well up to modern pressures.
And a similar treatment of Martini Henry actions or just a standard Martini Enfield action will yield an action strong enough for 45,000 CUP......i.e. 303 Brit, 30-40 Krag and any number of other rimmed catridges.
But the fact remains that strong or not their primary extraction is weak.
Accordingly shooting sensible and not suicidally heroic loads through them will see them cycle quickly and smoothly.