Nef handi-rifle throat in 45-70

[petvetdoc]

I have a new 45-70 Handi-rifle on order. How long is the throat in front of the cartridge? I am hoping to install a breechplug and want to shoot a load ~55 grains h41198. I have read accuracy is best if your muzzleloading bullet is seated in front of the throat, so I would like to design the Breechplug to give me the right bullet placement with my desired load. thanks

[coues2506]

You havn't said what projectile. Load sounds much too heavy for any pure lead bullet you will be able to push down the bore - Be especially careful about typos when discussing loads. I am sure you meant H4198.  I think the best and most successful course is if you want a muzzleloader is to buy a muzzleloader. That way you can be sure the bore diameter is correct for bullets designed for front stuffers. Rethink your plans.

[quickdtoo]

You won't know where the rifling starts in your particular barrel until you get it, design and built the breech plug to work in your barrel. Just an FYI, H&R riflling if very shallow .002" deep and I seriously doubt it will work for your intended purpose. If you want a smokeless H&R, just buy one from SMI. 

Tim

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/products.html

[quickdtoo]

You might want to read about a previous attempt on that idea.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,216645.msg1099172255.html#msg1099172255

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,217321.msg1099178455.html#msg1099178455

Spanky, just for you. My 45/70 barrel I hand made into a muzzleloader shoots like crap. Maybe it's me but I couldn't get it to shoot with black powder or subs. I tried smokeless loaded from the breach with real bullets low pressure and high pressure, no accuracy. I found my design was flawed. The 209 primer sat right on the face of the receiver and cratered it with high pressure loads. The "black" fowled terrible. The twist was wrong. I am disappointed in the experiment but learned many valuable lessons. I use this for PA muzzleloader season, any muzzleloader, and it works. 14g Unique, 451 patched round ball, Stuffed down the tube, very low pressure but accurate out to 75/100y. Probably 900 minus fps. I have plenty of real smoke poles to use and have killed many deer with them. A Handyholic project but not really successful. The only load I haven't tried is 45 cal Powerbelts with 100g pellets. Tried 50g pellets and patched 300g bullets, worked but had to completely disassemble and clean gun after 3 shots. Many key holes with other loads. PS I had to use a hand hammer to ram all loads except the round balls.

[bikerbeans]

PVD,

I have shot my 45-70 as a muzzleloader using 45 caliber MZ conicals.  Since a muzzler loader has the bullet in the rifling when loaded I did the same when loading my 45-70.  Loading a projectile to the bottom of the rifling on a 45-70 would leave way too much volume to use H4198 powder.  The 55 grain load you mentioned is probably way too much H4198 for a lead conical as this is a fairly high pressure load with a 300 grain jacketed bullet in a cartridge.  I would think it would be best if you try this to use either black powder or a black powder substitute as these powders are meant to shoot sabot and conical bullets.  It is very unlikely that you can muzzle load a hard cast or jacketed bullet in your 45-70, it would take way more force than you can muster with a ramrod to seat the bullet.  I would suggest you don't load a lead conical into the throat because the conical is fairly loose when in full contact with the rifling and would be more so in the throat. 

Having played with conicals and the 45-70 a bit I was not impressed with the accuracy.  My 50 cal. Huntsman is much more accurate with the same bullets and powder (BH 209).  I would try and find a Huntsman or Huntsman barrel to use for muzzleloading.   Also,  try posting your question on the NEF/H&R Muzzleloading forum as there as several folks out in H&R land that have played around with this concept.

Good luck.

BB

[quickdtoo]

BB, the breech plug can be as long as he needs it to be since it's being custom made, it could be plenty long to make the chamber suitable for a max 300gr bullet levergun load(Hodgdon data) of H4198 which is my favorite powder for 300gr 45-70 jacketed loads. But getting a suitable projectile to shoot good loaded from the muzzle is another story.  

Tim

[petvetdoc]

This has been done a few times before me with Handi-rifles.
52-57g H4198 with a 200 gr SST saboted bullet. Some people reporting MOA accuracy ( haven't seen their targets, just their posts). I am trying to get a rough idea of the length of the throat in front of the chamber to try to figure out roughly what size powder chamber I want in the breech plug.

PS; Sold my 58 cal. huntsman to finance this project!

[quickdtoo]

H&R 45-70 barrels are generally short throated, but not all are, so I would highly recommend you wait until you have the rifle and base your breech plug dimensions on your barrel.  

Are you sure you have seen this done before? It's never been posted here before that I recollect other than the one I linked to, maybe someone in the Huntsman forum will tho.  I did an internet search and your post at Doug's Message Boards is the only reference to it I found. Mississippi and Louisiana allow the 45-70 Handi, and other pre-1900 designed single shot breech loaders 35 Cal and larger(MS) 38 cal and Larger(LA) to be used in their "primitive" deer seasons in which muzzleloaders are also allowed.

Tim

[Slufoot]

Hey petvetdoc, I recommend you use a Savage breechplug, get the new hexhead plugs they offer. The Savage plug is long enough to use up almost all the chamber wich will allow you to load as light as you want and it also has the replaceable vent liner. The only thing about using the Savage plug in these rifles is you will have to headspace the 209 or it can be driven deeper into the plug by the firing pin and cause missfires, I make a press fit haedspace bushing foe each one I make and it fixes this issue. I have built seven of these muzzleloaders for myself and others and they have all been very good shooters. I built one for a friend and then his 2 brothers had to have one so I built each of them one, they have taken 6 deer this year between  them, I have harveted 3 deer this year with mine. These guns will shoot inder 1.5" @ 100 yards with the right loads. My gun is pushing the 40 caliber 200 grain Hornady SST in a Blue smooth Harvester sabot to 2400 fps and has shot sub MOA on many occasions and is devistating on whitetails.
Here is a link to a post I did which has a picture of my muzzleloader in it.   http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,219183.0.html

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[gjdykeman]

Slufoot, encouraged by your post. I have not given up yet. I thought about the Savage breach plug but went with the Omega instead. I bought a bunch of the bullets and sabots you mentioned. I will be working this in the summer. I decided the 209 primers and smokeless powder is not the choice for me. No time now for projects, need to fill the freezer. You never mentioned powder or load??? This could me helpful to me. This will work, a fun project.

[petvetdoc]

Slufoot,
Thanks for the post and the info! You pulled my fat out of the fire on the board here
I think everyone thought I was a nut job! It sure seemed to me like a simple, yet great idea. I am hoping to work on this over the winter and be ready to fly next season. Is your bushing for the 209 sort of a fabricated stainless steel washer?

[petvetdoc]

One other question, please. Do you tap the chamber leaving the breechplug out a few thousanths and then shave the forward muzzle face of the breech plug to adjust headspace?

[bikerbeans]

Apologetic PM sent.

[Slufoot]

Slufoot,
Thanks for the post and the info! You pulled my fat out of the fire on the board here
I think everyone thought I was a nut job! It sure seemed to me like a simple, yet great idea. I am hoping to work on this over the winter and be ready to fly next season. Is your bushing for the 209 sort of a fabricated stainless steel washer?

Yes, a very precise washer!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[Slufoot]

One other question, please. Do you tap the chamber leaving the breechplug out a few thousanths and then shave the forward muzzle face of the breech plug to adjust headspace?

No, that method will not work to headspace with the Savage plug. I install the BP so that 2/3 of the 209 is in and 1/3 is out, this makes a very good fit to seal and leaves enough to get a hold of for removal. I take a measurement with the 209 flush with the back of the barrel and carefully remove the plug, take the measurements and then make the headspace bushing.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[243wright]

Thats a really neat idea and a nice looking gun slufoot. How did you tap the chamber to take the breechplug?

[Slufoot]

Thats a really neat idea and a nice looking gun slufoot. How did you tap the chamber to take the breechplug?

Hello 243wright, somehow this post got away from me sorry for the long delay to reply. All the chamber/BP work is done in my lathe, once I get the barrel setup in the lathe it doesn't come back out until all the work is done.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot