Author Topic: 35 whelen dies (Read 1042 times)

max1138 · « **on:** January 01, 2011, 09:23:58 AM »

Im about to start reloading for my whelen in a handi rifle, have everything I need except I havent ordered dies yet.
my lee dies in 308 have served me well for years so Im partial to them but am wondering what else is out there. Ive looked from the cheapest lee set to the high dollar redding competition micrometer set and just wonder how they all work and how durable they are or any known problems with either.
please list just the ones you have used and know, hornady sucks or lee's are terrible isnt very helpful.
Im just looking for minute of deer accuracy here, a 6" group at 300 yards is perfectly acceptable for whitetail and hogs at the ranges im comfortable with.

as I said, my experience is with lee and Im comfortable with them and just wondering if there is any better or if there is a need to look for better.

mauser98us · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2011, 09:30:37 AM »

I use Lee dies,and even tho the quality isn't as good as others they are still a seviceable product. All things being equal,if I have a little jingle in the pocket,I like Redding best.

Catfish · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2011, 11:08:22 AM »

I personaly don`t like Lee dies, I`ve just had to much trouble with them, but if they work for you you could get another set. I would recomand RCBS or Hornady. I think the Redding are some of the best on the market and have several sets of them, mostly in neck bushing die, but I doubt they would be worth the extra cost to you, save the money for powder and bullets.

drdougrx · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2011, 01:33:53 PM »

I use Lee's...along with the factory crimp die.

topper88 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:23:55 AM »

I bought a set of Lee dies for the Whelan I bought through this board. They worked great. The conventional full length die reformed military .30-06 brass necks beautifully. I shoot mostly lead. I got loads off the latest Lyman manual for both 158 gr. jacketed .357 pistol bullets as well as the 200 grain lead with gas check bullets I had. The roll crimp worked fine on both. One tip I discovered was I exchanged a .357 pistol powder through expander insert for the conventional one in the rifle powder die. It worked great to both expand and drop a powder charge with the double stack disk option on the Lee Auto Disk powder measure. Worked like a dream on the four place turret press but I only had to used two spaces, one for expansion & powder and the other to seat and crimp. Good luck with whatever you choose.

calvon · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:59:22 AM »

I bought a two die set of Lee dies for my 35 Whelen and the full length sizer sets the shoulder too far back, creating headspace where none exists. My rifle, a M98 military Mauser with a PacNor barrel installed by PacNor, accepts a go gage and won't accept a no-go gage.

I'm not a cheerleader for Lee Precision.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2011, 12:34:44 PM »

Calvan,

This is just my opinion, but one formed years back, so have been there and done that on the following.

In most all cases, do not follow the manufactures recomendations as per setting up a sizer in a full length die set!!!!!!!!!!

Because of manufacting tolerences, You stand a very good chance in over sizing your brass.

For example, say you happen to have a chamber on the big/long side of the tolerences and a full length sizer die on the small/short side. This would be worse case, but it can and does happen and when it does, not only does your reload consistancey go to pot, but brass life goes right out the window, BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rather, always set your full lenght sizing die just close enough to the shell holder to assure smooth chambering.

Using one sizing die for more then one firearm, may or may not work out well, depending on where they fall - +/- - on size.

When setting you full length die, do not allow it to touch the shell holder. Rather set it above the shell holder, possibly as much as 1/8". Size a case and see how it chambers. If it chamber without any problems, size and load the remaining cases.

AT some point after those cases have been fired a number of times, it may be hard to chamber or close the action on a loaded round.

It is very likely this will happen, at which point adjust the die down just far enough to again allow for smooth chambering.

You may need to go through this process 2 or 3 times over the life of that first batch of brass, but you will end up at the optimum position for your sizing die in combination with your press AND firearm chamber.

This position will provide you with the best consistancy and brass life FOR YOUR FIREARM, but may or may not work with other firearms in the same caliber.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

wncchester · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2011, 02:17:09 PM »

Your question is a common one and, strong opinions aside, there is no guarantee of a higher 'quality" of reloaded ammo from any common die types/brands, at any price. A few hours testing and measuring with a concentricity gage and a few dozen mixed brands and calibers of dies will confirm that but sittin' at a loading bench admiring purty die exteriors won't.

Fact is, all dies are actually quite good. No matter what die set we get, if the individual tolerances for the parts stack ideally they will be as good as it's possible to obtain. Even if they stack the worst possible way they will still do a pretty good job. There is a looong learning curve to truly precision reloading and it can't be bought in a box of any color. It will be years before most loaders have the loading skills/knowledge to use a really costly die set to a real advantage. When/if you get there, you'll have enough experience to know what you want without asking a bunch of web strangers what's best for you!

All sizers are reamed with SAAMI dimensioned cutters and they cut chambers according to SAAMI specs, which is a range, not a point reference. Anything inside the limits are fully in intolerance, meaning there is as much difference between size dies of the same brand as there is between brands. Seaters have varying designs, no one of which seems to have any consistant "on average" advantage over others except two; Forster BR and Redding Competition. ONLY those two have a full length body sleeve that aligns both the case and bullet before seating begins but the differences aren't great and they ain't cheep. (Micrometer heads are user aids, they don't add a thing to the quality of the ammo.)

All makers occasionally let a clunker of anything get out, but every one of them will replace honest defects. So, in the very rare instance you may get something less than properly made you won't be stuck with it unless you let it be so.

Bottom line, pick a die price point and/or brand that fits your ego and get that in full confidence that if you do your part they will load excellant ammo for you.

drdougrx · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2011, 03:06:15 PM »

.....and....there's some question as to the proper dimensions for the 35whalen. There was alot of discussion in the Single Shot Rifle thread about this. I know because I started it as I bought a new, special run #1 in 35whalen that missfired with nearly all factory and handloaded rounds...and I played with the headspacing plenty. I finally sent the gun back to Ruger and they could not fix it and reimbursed me my $1,000 purchase price. FWIW, I then bought a Rem700 CDL and have had NO problems at all but I do full length size the brass and set the sizer to sit on or lightly touch the shell holder which gives me a snug chamber fit.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2011, 06:11:27 PM »

drdougrx,

I full understand that the following should not need to be done, but --------

I wonder what would have happened if you would have expanded the neck on your brass, then run it into the sizing die only to the point where it would chamber with a slight crush fit and then loaded and attempted to fire.

OR ---------- if you would have seated bullets into the lands ahead of a moderate powder load and then attempted to fire the case?

I had a 30 Gibbs, and the fellow who reamed the chamber cut it overly long. Even if I had had a supply of 30 Gibbs brass, there would likely have been a headspace problem.

The simple way to get brass for the Gibbs is to take 35 Whelen brass and size to the point where it chambers with that slight cruse fit in the Gibbs chamber, but as I was using 30/06 brass, I used the long seated bullets - into the lands - method of maintaining head space during the fire forming.

Seems likely that one or both those methods might have worked, with the long seated bullets being the fastest of the two.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

drdougrx · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2011, 03:37:30 AM »

Thanks Darrell,

I tried...and could only get 2 in 10 to fire. I even took those cases that did fire, semi neck sized them, loaded them and again could only get a few of those to fire. Too much work for such an expensive toy.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2011, 07:46:15 AM »

Too bad they didn't let you know the problem.

If you used basicly the methods I spoke of, it should have solved the head space problems, and anything else as per firing should have been only a matter of new parts.

The 30 Gibbs I spoke of, had a neck quite a bit shorter then the typical short Gibbs neck, so it did require a false shoulder or a long seated bullet to hold the case in position during fire forming. A "normal" Gibbs case wouldn't have done it.

Seems like the only thing which could have been unfixable on your #1 would have been an incorrectly chambered barrel and a replacement barrel should have been all that was needed to bring it into line.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

? Sure wish they would have clued you and in turn all the rest of us following your thread, in on just what the problem was.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Lost Oki · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2011, 12:29:39 PM »

I have Lee, RCBS and Redding dies. Like all of them. My Whelen is the Improved and mostly neck size and that die is a Redding.
My 2 cents.....go with what you have experience with. If you like Lee, thats the way to go! If you want to try something new...
then go with one of the others. I have had excellent results with all of the Lee products but have no complaints about any of the others.
As the saying goes..."what ever blows your dress up"......(not to imply that anyone wears a dress)

topper88 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2011, 03:39:54 AM »

All wonderful posts regarding die choice and 35 Whelen dies in particular. As a follow up to my post above, I had a chance to shoot my Whelen, Lee collet neck size and shoot them again. Use whatever die brand that works for you. I want to call attention to .30-06 military brass resized to .35 Whelen. I used brass with the HXP head stamp which was Greek surplus from the CMP program. Out of a batch of 100, I split three necks reforming and after firing them twice more three more necks had small cracks and I discarded them. Six percent loss when brass forming is nothing. I had no problem in 200 rounds with FTF from head spacing problems.

Another observation, my Whelen was purchased through the board and was a Southern gun, one of 200 distributed down south. Mine has been excellent and you may want to seek out that vintage Whelen when you buy a used barrel.

drdougrx · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2011, 05:30:48 AM »

When I made whalen brass from 06, I also split quite af ew necks. I then took out my set of 338 dies, expanded the 06 neck to .338 and then again to .358 and never split another one.

BTW...here's the thread of my 35whalen trials and tribs: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208728.0.html

max1138 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2011, 03:11:06 PM »

well, bought the lee dies, a local shop I didnt previously know existed had them in stock, along with the 225 sierra gamekings I was planning on trying out.
we shall see just how good the seating dies are, a quick check with a homemade OAL gauge reveals a laughably long throat in my handi rifle to the point where theres maybe .255 of the bullet in the case with the ogive set at 20/1000ths from the lands.
considering that this is a boat-tail there are lots of problems with this.
I may just trade this cursed thing.

drdougrx · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2011, 03:55:54 PM »

Hey Max,

In my Rem I loaded the 225gr SGK over 60gr of RL-15 and an overall length of 3.30". Today, I shot 1.5" groups at 100. Not stellar but it's my 1st attempt with the 225gr and will still tweek a bit. In my rifle, that would be about a 4.5" group at 300. Why don't you just try some loaded to 3.4 and see how they do???

Though I'm looking for that under an inch at 100 load...the whelan isn't a 300win as far as long range. But it can certainly take big animals cleanly at 300 for sure....

BTW...I may use the SGK this year in the whelan for aoudad and oryx so it will be interesting to see what they can do.

max1138 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2011, 06:01:37 PM »

the 3.4 oal looks to be it, itll have .0256 jump to the lands with the bullet seated around .200 not counting the boattail.
I try to start at .0100 from the lands on load workups and set back from there to see where the rifle likes them but if im gonna use this particular bullet Ill just have to start a bit further back. Im used to tight cut browning chambers and throats, usually its getting the bullet and the power in the case without a compressed load that the problem there.
the barnes x and similar alloys are longer but I dont need super premium bullets for whitetail and hogs.
I may get a few just to try for the sake of experimenting.
Ill start at 54gr. of rl15 at 3.4 OAL and see how it goes with the sierras.

I prefer boattails for no reason other than than the tiniest bit of downrange ballistics, never seen it matter to anything Ive shot.
I wanted to use the sierra as a good all purpose deer and hog load that wont break the bank if I feel the need to practice. gonna give it a try anyway. if it dont work it dont work and theres lots of choices.
thanks doc.

drdougrx · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2011, 02:15:37 AM »

Good deal Max...I used to worry about OAL until I found that in many of my rifles, it didn't matter all that much...

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2011, 06:00:00 AM »

Just an Ol'Coots well sung opinion, but the cheapest part of a hunt is a high quality bullet with lots of integrity!

Cup & Core designs may fly really well, and make very small groups, but they have minimal intregity.

Now, they will very likely put critters on the ground, but many times with excessive meat loss and always with little or no margin for error.

Premimum quality bullets, are worth the money for hunting game animals.

As per OAL, Rick Jamerson wrote an artical a few years back, in which he published findings which seemed to indicate that bullet seating depth, possibly, had a similar effect as the adjustment of a Browning/Winchester, "BOSS."

It would make little sense to throw changes of OAL into the mix of the changes of powder types (#s), bullet types/brands etc. during load work up.

However, once what seems to be your sweetest load has been found, then slight changes in OAL just may fine tune those groups.

In my very limited testing, there seemed to be something to this idea.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot