powder choice for medium 357 loads

[TommyD]

I have been casting the 160 grain FN Bevel Base .358 bullets from my new mold and I am in the process of load development for my 357 mag GP100.

The load I want will launch these little beauties at 1200 fps. About the same momentum impulse as the standard GI .45 auto. Pleasant and easy to shoot for plinking and target. It should also be quite satisfactory for pest control at my country place. Not a hunting load. For that, will continue to partake in the joy attendant to all things 45.

From the manufacturers data tables this should be easily achievable with either Hodgdon's Universal or Accurate No. 9. Universal will probably give a cleaner burn.

Is there any downside to using Universal vs Accurate No. 9? Will there be any significant long term difference in the wear and tear on the gun due to differing temperature and pressure curves?

I ask this because I recently came across posts from Bob Baker that  Freedom Arms recommends avoiding Lil'Gun Powder in both their .454 and .357 revolvers. it seems that even though the pressure is less with Lil'Gun than H110, the burn temperature is substantially hotter and they are seeing accelerated wear on the forcing cones.

Tom

[telebasher]

To my mind 1200 fps with a 160 gr bullet is on the lower middle side of high pressure loads for a 357.  You didn't say what barrel length but my son's 4 inch GP-100 shoots 9gr 2400 under a Lee TL 158 in 38 case @  988 fps and 10.5 gr 2400 in a mag case @  1060  fps.  These will shoot in a 11/4  @ 25 yds if  the shooter is able. The recoil is very mild and accuracy is good enough for squirrels or any other small game or varmint. If I need a heavier 357 load I use the Lyman 358429 with 13 gr Alliant 2400  @ 1340 fps out of a 6 inch Ruger BH .

[GH1]

My load of choice is 13.5 gr AA#9 with a 158 gr cast bullet. I haven't chrony'd them, but I suspct velocity to be around 1350 fps, give or take. 11.5 should get you where you need to be, I would think. For an even mildrr load I've been successful with around 6 gr of Bullseye. What I like about AA#9 is the fact that I can use standard small pistol primers with them. This way I don't have to worry about stocking different primers for my .380, .38, and .357.
The #9 is also known to be clean burning without much muzzle flash, and being a ball powder, I find it meters very well. But that's just me. I'm sure others have different ideas about what will work.
GH1

[res45]

With the Lee 158 gr. SWC or RN both cast for m WW alloy I like 12.5 grs. of Alliant 2400 SP primer.MV is around 1200 fps. for a lighter load I like the MAX charge of 8.0 Power Pistol SMP primer MV is around 1100 fps. Both are excellent loads in my Ruger BH 6.5" and Taurus M65 4".

The Power Pistol is a bit flashy and can have a  loud report but I shoot outdoors anyways so it's no issue.

[TommyD]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your input. I have used 2400 and No. 9 in 357 and also experimented with Skeeter's and Elmers loads using the 358156 and 358429 in 38 brass. And I do have a chronograph, so I can measure how fast I am launching my lead. I am shooting a 4 inch GP100.

I don't think I was clear in the thrust of my question.

Let me give you a little info on my background. I started shooting pistols in the early 80s and competed for 10 years at a local level in an IPSC club with my 45 auto. Even though I haven't competed for over 15 years, it is still in my blood.

An IPSC major power factor is pretty anemic compared to the true potential of the 357 cartridge. But to be at all competitive, you have to put a lot of rounds through your guns. So many that parts break. My local gunsmith used to rib me with "So what did you break today?" I have replaced multiple sets of springs,  broken barrel bushing, trigger assembly, and various small parts on my 1911. I even managed to break the transfer bar in my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt. I have also broken a firing pin and a trigger spring on a Freedom Arms 83. When you put a couple thousand rounds through your guns each year, things do wear out.

The thrust of my question is this: If I will be shooting a very large volume of these moderate 1200 fps loads in my 357, will there be any significant difference in wear and tear between a relatively slow powder like No. 9 and a faster powder like Hodgdon's Universal?

Tom

[Lloyd Smale]

I only use aa9 for top end loads anymore. Like 110/296 its not a good powder to download. A good powder for your application would be 2400. Hs6 would be another but 1200 is about the max your going to want to go with hs6 and 2400 will allow you to reach the 357s top end if you decide later to do it.

[Dand]

TommyD you are way more of a shooter than I but if you do volume shooting I'd think you'd be looking at economics too and smaller loads of faster powders might be a real savings over the long run - assuming no gun damage in the mix. And of all guns, I'd expect a GP-100 to hold up far better than most. But then you say you broke a Ruger Blackhawk.... .  I don't shoot near your volume but I tend to use Unique for a lot of medium loads since I have a good supply. I've played a little with Universal and I think it burns cleaner but I don't have much and getting more would be a real hassle for me.

Have you tried contacting Ruger? Maybe they have torture tested a few of their guns.

1200 fps is perking right along to my way of thinking. I think my plinker loads run in the 950 to 1100 range.

For a while I had some Winchester Super Target I think it was. I used it up on 357 loads. I kind of liked it, it burned clean and performed well.  But it was very fine and snuck out of my Lee Proauto Disk more than any other powder I've ever used.

Very interesting info on the Lil Gun - I've played with that in my 41 but mostly stick with H110 - a more known quantity for me.

[TommyD]

I have enjoyed high volume shooting. But not the "spray and pray" kind. Every shot has to be on target. That's how you get good.

When I went to the Gunsite training academy in the early 90s (Orange Gunsite - when Jeff Cooper still owned it) we went through over 600 rounds of factory hardball (45 ACP) in the week long defensive pistol course. By the end of the week, the web between my thumb and index finger was raw and bloody. But man, it was FUN.

I could to the Dozier Drill in about 4 seconds. You start with the gun in the holster and your back to the targets. 5 pepper poppers at varying distances. When the whistle blows, you turn, draw your weapon, and knock down all 5 pepper poppers as fast as you can. But every shot had to be a hit because you can never shoot fast enough to make up for a miss. I was in the top third of my class, but by no means the best. There were guys there who did closer to 3 seconds.

But if you shoot a lot, there is wear and tear on your guns.

Tom

[buck460XVR]

1200 fps is perking right along to my way of thinking. I think my plinker loads run in the 950 to 1100 range.

Same here.......for my medium .357 loads between Unique and H110/W296, I like IMR4227 . I gave up on Lil' Gun in my revolvers quite a while ago, altho I'll still use it in the carbines till I use up what I have left.

[Old Fart]

I usually use either Unique or Bullseye, depending on what's in the powder drop when I start.
I've heard people say they are dirty but I've never noticed it being a problem.
Heck I clean my guns everytime I use them anyway.
You do need to be a little more observant with the Bullseye though as it tends to be a small charge.
It'd be easy to double charge with it if you aren't real careful, which you should be anyway.

[TommyD]

So many choices, so little time at the reloading bench.

I have been reloading large bore (45 acp and 45 Colt) for quite a while and with lots of trial and error have settled in on a few powder/bullet combinations that work well for me.

I am very much on the learning curve for 38/357. I have been playing with the powders I am comfortable with to see if they will work in 38/357. I am beginning to think that two of the oldest powders - Unique and 2400 - may be just the ticket for this caliber. You don't need magnum primers for them and there don't seem to be load density issues either like you have with H110/296. I suppose that there is a reason that they have continued to be popular after so many years.

I definitely agree with Old Fart about using bulky powders like Unique. Early in my reloading experience (back in the late 80s), a friend put what I believe was a double charge of Bullseye in one of his 45 ACP rounds and when he set it of in his 1911, the unsupported part of the case ruptured and blew the bottom of his magazine out along with 3 live 45 rounds. The rubber Pachmayr grips bulged, but absorbed most of the energy. His support hand did have a minor laceration where the bottom of the mag blew out. He was lucky.

After witnessing this near disaster, I never again loaded a single round with Bullseye. I bought an 8 pound can of Unique and never looked back. Unique is bulky enough that a double charge fills the case so high that it is vrtually impossible not to recognize.

As to my somewhat arbitrary choice of 1200 fps velocity, it is probably because of my old IPSC days. The IPSC power factor is basically a measure of momentum: mass times velocity. Standard 45 hardball is 230 grains traveling about 830 fps. IPSC major caliber.
230 x 834.7 = 160 x 1200 (approx)
Same momentum.
Recoil is very similar and at a level I am very comfortable with.