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Offline colonelsanders

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444 spitzer?
« on: January 17, 2011, 09:16:54 AM »
Has anyone used a true Spitzer type bullet in the 444?  Custom made or from a mainstream manufacturer?  Cast or jacket?  What weight?  Years ago I had a Marlin lever in 444 but sold it(never have liked lever guns), but I kept my dies and brass, had been collecting dust for about 8 years and it time to make use of it.  I have looked at the Hornady FXT, but thats not exacty a true spitzer.  Colonelsanders
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 10:29:15 AM »
No one that I'm aware of makes a .429-430" jacketed spitzer other than the two Hornady FTX bullets, Montana Swaging makes .440" spire point paper patch cast bullets, that's as close as I've seen. I've sized .416" jacketed bullets to .411" in a Lee .410" push thru die for my 405 Win Target Classic, but I don't know of a bullet that would work for that to get a .430" jacketed.

Tim
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Offline knight0334

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 10:32:03 AM »
You will have to consider that a spitzer will be longer than the typical .429" bullets for the 444 Marlin, and that the older 444 Marlin Handi's had a slow twist rate - you may face stabilization issues if you have a 1:38" twist.  Especially if you go with heavier bullets which are longer, and compound the bullet length.

Newer 1:20" rate barrels wont have a problem at all.

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Offline colonelsanders

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 10:37:05 AM »
Im sure one of the custom bullet companies would make some if there were enough orders, but I was hoping someone here might be able to tell me who that company was.  I agree the twist would have to be 20.  A 300 to 450 grain pointed bullet of .430 should have a huge BC.  Would make an excellent long range projectile.
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Offline knight0334

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 10:44:41 AM »
You might be able to find a mould if you cast your own that has a spitzer profile.  With the right alloy and gas-checks you could have a winner of a bullet.

You can have a local machine shop make you a mould if you provide a good drawing.
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Offline colonelsanders

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 10:52:37 AM »
Never thought about that.  My brother in law is a machinist, might have to give him a call.
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 11:49:16 AM »
Colonel,

You make the 0.430" spitzers and I'll buy some. ;)

BB
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Offline Couger

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 12:27:09 PM »
Surprised NO ONE mentioned the Hornady 'LeveRevolution' bullets!  Comes equipped with a polymer "spitzer-like" tip.

Not sure what the weight would be available for the .444M, but Ken Waters of [Handloader magazine] "Pet Loads" fame reported on his findings about the .444 (and infinite other cartridges).  Waters focussed on the 265 grain weight as optimal.  A bullet or boolit of 265-280 grains is the range I'd look at.  And at the velocities a .444 operates - how well would that LeveRevolution work for ya?  And expand reliably?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 01:21:01 PM »
Quote from: Couger on January 17, 2011, 12:27:09 PM
Surprised NO ONE mentioned the Hornady 'LeveRevolution' bullets!  Comes equipped with a polymer "spitzer-like" tip.

Not sure what the weight would be available for the .444M, but Ken Waters of [Handloader magazine] "Pet Loads" fame reported on his findings about the .444 (and infinite other cartridges).  Waters focussed on the 265 grain weight as optimal.  A bullet or boolit of 265-280 grains is the range I'd look at.  And at the velocities a .444 operates - how well would that LeveRevolution work for ya?  And expand reliably?

They have been mentioned, the bullet name is FTX, the ammo is Leverevolution. 444 FTX bullets are available in 265gr, they also make a 225gr .430" FTX for the 44mag.  ;) Hornady FTX data runs em up to 2300fps. Their new Superformance ammo runs 2400fps according to them, but it's only available with the 265gr Interlock.

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Cal-.430-265-gr-FTX-for-444-Marlin/

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ftx_load_data/444_marlin_ftx.pdf

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/
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Offline Couger

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 05:45:44 PM »
Was talking about the immediate discussion when I said I was surprised ..... !   ;)

But thanks for the other info (and data) Tim.

The 'Interlock' was one of Hornady's first cup-n-core type bullets, wasn't it?  For the longest time and except for the Nosler Partition, weren't cup-n-core lead/copper bullets what we had mostly?  (regardless of ammo maker or bullet maker?)  Our dad's, uncle's and grand-dad's made them work on elk and moose and similar critters as well as deer.  A lot of game was killed just fine with cup-n-core bullets - Chuck Hawks has a funny tounge-in-cheek article about this point!

And thanks for those other links too.  Right now I'm without a copy of Ken Water's (comprehensive) "Pet Loads" collection/compilation of his articles written during his years he did that column.  I cannot recall if 2300fps was the highest velocity Waters listed,  but no doubt it wouldn't have been much more than that.

But regardless, with a tough bullet I'd have no qualms about shooting a 265 grain bullet into a moose or elk and expect to get blood under my fingernails!  And if that Interlock-LeveRevolution is tough enough, I'd be anxious to see [pics] how well it can kill an elk!

Soon I hope to scratch an itch about the .357 Maxi, and Hornady offers a 200 grain LeveRevolution in the .358 caliber, probably with the .35 Remington in mind.  I'll have to compare its sectional densitie and ballistic coefficient with tose same data about the .429 cal .444Marlin bullet!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 06:35:09 PM »
Quote from: colonelsanders on January 17, 2011, 10:37:05 AM
Im sure one of the custom bullet companies would make some if there were enough orders, but I was hoping someone here might be able to tell me who that company was. 

Here's a list of custom bullet makers compiled by Corbin, I checked a couple of those that make .430" bullets, they appear to be out of business, dead websites.

Tim

http://www.corbins.com/bmakers.htm
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Offline petemi

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 01:39:33 AM »
I've used the Hornady LEs, before I stared reloading, in .45-70, .44 Mag and .30-30 with good results.  They definately shoot flatter, but perhaps are more frangible.  They work fine on whitetails, but I'm doubtful about penetration on larger game.

Pete
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 06:01:01 AM »
Hawk makes them from 275 to 400 grain:

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 06:08:02 AM »
Thanks Joe, now I know what's goin down the bore of my 444 Superlight!!  ;D

Tim
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Offline colonelsanders

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 06:55:21 AM »
Looked at Hawk, man they are proud of them bullets!  Has anyone had a custom mold made?  Is there much to the design of a custom mold?
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Offline Couger

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 07:49:52 AM »
Check out NEI Hand Tools. (dot com)

They are not the "last list" of cast boolit designs, but they offer a great and big selection nonetheless.

Might be a little tricky at first navigating their site, but once you figure them out they offer lots of info and design ideas.

I'd be curious if you'd report on your findings, if you see/saw something you like?   8)

My interest in the .444M is non-existant, but in the 45/70 its a standard 300-405 grain cast design gas-check w/ meplat.  RCBS offers both those designs, to be shot at anything from deer to moose at normal ("higher") .45/70 velocities.

Eventually I might acquire a .44mag Handi bbl to rechamber to .445 Super.  Thought about acquiring a 280-300 grain mold for some heavier BG or bear-protection boolits, but figured I could buy the few booltis I'd need.

I'd definitely agree with the crowd who believes 240 grainers are too light in either the .444M or .445S.
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: 444 spitzer?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2011, 10:38:25 AM »
Contact site sponsor Veral Smith LBT .He not only builds molds he is the go to guy for any Cast bullet question  ;D
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