Author Topic: Mike Stimson's silhouette stands and targets... (Read 1726 times)

Medbill · « **on:** June 19, 2005, 05:29:06 PM »

are freaking SWEET!!!!

Can't wait to have our first match, hopefully we'll have some dates soon. Man are we going to be able to do twice as much shooting in half the time!

Targets are very well made and work like a charm!

Thanks Mike!

Billy Lo

Heres a pic, the backs still needed to be attached but I just had to snap a quick shot of them, enjoy!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/album_pic.php?pic_id=919

Slowstdy · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2005, 02:22:24 PM »

Hi Billy
Sweet they may be, but if your photograph is correct and they are assembled correctly, Turkeys and Pigs are illegal. Rule 4.1 Not to drawing.
Cheers Dave C. A.K.A. Limey
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/silhtgts/silhtar-11.pdf

Medbill · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2005, 04:23:54 PM »

Dave I don't have my rulebook under my pillow, could you tell me what the problem is with the targets? Mike sold them to me as NRA legal stands and I trust he knows what he is talking about.

Thanks much,

Billy

Slowstdy · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2005, 04:59:44 PM »

OK Billy
4.1 Targets for NRA sancitioned Silhouette competion shall be of the size and shape established by the scale drawings (see. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/silhtgts/silhtar-11.pdf). Your Turkeys and Pigs are facing the wrong way.
Cheers Dave C. A.K.A. Limey

Medbill · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2005, 05:03:26 PM »

You are joking right?

sillywetshooter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 21, 2005, 06:13:19 PM »

Hey dave according to the drawing every other animal would face a different way?

Slowstdy · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2005, 03:02:53 AM »

Billy. If I had paid the $ you paid, I would want them right. I have gone to a great deal of work to get all my targets right. Ive had a good look at several of mikes targets, some had feet on some did not, some of the frames get twisted up real quick some not. So no Im not joking, the rules in this case are very simple, make them like the drawings out of the materials specified and put feet on them to the specifications. Done deal, no ambiguity clean cut. As an engineer just the way I like it, specifications and drawings no one should ever get it wrong. I know its not important but if the companies who make the cast animals can get it right, all seem to have a dimple on the back so you cant get them wrong, then I dont see a problem with a commercial company making resetables right.

Sillywetshooter. Not quite. They face Chickens right, Pigs and Turkeys left, Rams right.
As I see it, it means were ever you go, every thing should look the same.

As a side, any know what Heliarc means? I know its TIG welding, but were did the word come from? Its not in any of my dictionaries.
The word is used in Rule 4.1 Air Gun silhouette targets.
Cheers Dave C. A.K.A Limey

nomad · « **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2005, 04:05:05 AM »

4.1 requires that all targets of the same TYPE face the same DIRECTION. IOW a shooter facing 2 banks of 10 should not have one bank of any animal facing left and the other facing right. (Or a mix of the two.)

A careful read of the rule indicates that the drawing is for scale/dimension/shape. I see nothing stating that the drawing governs direction. And that's the way it's been interpreted at every match that I've ever attended. I don't think that you can take the two separate sentences in that rule (one covering the need to follow the drawing for scale and the other governing target direction) and overlap them or run them together. (At Raton, at cowboy and hunter pistol nationals last year -- where targets fall under the same rule structure -- one side of the animals was painted white and the other was black. The competitors were given the option of voting before the matches to have the targets placed so that the side painted to contrast most with the berm was available. It was, of course, mandated that ALL targets on the range show the same side, the decision wasn't up to individual shooters.)

AFAIK there is no requirement for any particular target to face any particular direction...at least I've seen them set facing either right or left at many registered competitions.

Mike's targets have been used for years now at registered matches without complaint.

I need to talk with GC (once he gets back from exile in the desert) about some other stuff and I'll ask about this one while I'm at it...but I think we're REALLY nit-picking here.

nomad · « **Reply #8 on:** June 22, 2005, 04:15:02 AM »

Re reading that, I might be wrong about target facing at cowboy last year.
I know that we did it at hunter pistol but it might not have been done at cowboy.

There's no real reason why I should remember that -- I was only a line officer at both! :roll:

Slowstdy · « **Reply #9 on:** June 22, 2005, 05:20:36 AM »

Nomad/ Billy. It's not important I agree. My point is, if I give some one a drawing and a specification then I expect it to be made to drawing. I do it all the time, most of the parts I get made would not work if the shop decided to reverse the drawings, not one of my drawings say item must face this way or that way, you dont even need to say make to size and shape, thats why you have a drawings! Sorry to me made to drawing is made to drawing. Plain and Simple. Why do all the cast animals face the way they are in the drawings? Sorry for nit-picking its your $. Just pointed out what I see, and I still dont see that they are made to drawing, so they do not conform to the Rules. You have to agree with me on that point. The fact that there are lots of them in use and by that fact, they are accepted and used fine. Im sure it makes little or no difference to final scores. May be I should keep my observations to my self next time.
Cheers Dave C. A.K.A. Limey

nomad · « **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2005, 05:51:49 AM »

The problem is that that shop analogy is apples to oranges.

There's no question that a part designed to interact with any other part HAS to be made specific to the design drawing. But silhouette targets are stand-alone. They don't have to be oriented any particular way to "work". (And reversing them really doesn't change the surface area of the "presentation".)

IMO, unless you can find a specific passage in the rules requiring that a particular animal face a particular direction (I don't know of any) then the orientation is up to the match directors/target setters/accident/whomever/whichever/whatever. ;-)

Dealing with that from the competitors' standpoint is "part of the game".

nomad · « **Reply #11 on:** June 22, 2005, 06:26:27 AM »

Dave,

I don't think any of us needs to "keep his observations to himself".

We do get a little contentious once in a while -- it's harder to argue in writing (and keep it civil) than it is in person -- but exchanging ideas is healthy for the sport. And this is about the only place where we're all "together" often enough to make that happen!

(This is given, naturally, with the understanding that anyone who doesn't agree instantly and completely with everything that I say is an A--!) :-D :-D :-D

Medbill · « **Reply #12 on:** June 22, 2005, 03:59:33 PM »

Dave,

My apologies, I really thought you were joking. Could you please tell me what is wrong with my targets? I held a copy of that target over each animal and they were perfect. Remember it could be the photo or the angle of it that is deceiving you. I would really like to know. About them facing different ways. I have never seen that done. Well I have but guys were too lazy and really didn't care about turning them the same as the others.

The only legitimate "problem" I could see is one Nomad mentioned about them not having feet. When viewed set up from distance they do appear to have feet. Only thing is they are not out in front of the animal. When I get to the range I will set them up and post some pics.

I'll contact the NRA about it to see if they are legal for competition. I'm sure they know of Mike's targets. Don't know if they will reply to me though, still waiting for a reply from my last letter.

Got myself some great blank Award Certificate paper today from Sam's club. Can't wait for our first match!

B

Slowstdy · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2005, 02:58:31 AM »

Hi Billy
The targets should face C=Right, P&T=Left, Rams=Right and have feet on them.
Cheers
Dave C

Slowstdy · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2005, 03:14:16 AM »

PJ you have PM
Cheers
Dave C. A.K.A Limey

GTS · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2005, 04:18:14 AM »

There seems to be one thing that is getting overlooked in this discussion. If you look at the patterns for the smallbore silhouette animals on the NRA web site:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/dept-silh.asp

The direction the animal is facing is the opposite of the direction they face when in use. At least this is the case on all of the smallbore cast iron animals that I have seen. In use, the chickens and rams face left and the pigs and turkeys face right. This is the opposite direction indicated by the "official" patterns. That being the case, it really doesn't seem to matter which direction they face. In addition to this, there is no reference to front or back on the patterns. This would seem to indicate that they are for size and shape only.

nomad · « **Reply #16 on:** June 24, 2005, 04:18:31 AM »

Guys,

First:

I don't think that I referenced 'feet' anywhere in my posts on this.

Second:

The drawing that is being referred to as the reason for this thread shows no feet. (Which rule REQUIRES feet? The reference to foot size for free- standing targets doesn't make feet mandatory for other types any way that I read it.)

Third:

Where IN THE RULES is anyone getting the left-right facing requirement?

Fourth: (This one's the kicker!)

According to GC there is no requirement for feet and as long as everything in any bank faces the same way, the targets can face EITHER right or left.
(He told me that National level comps have been held using both footless targets and with targets facing either way. That HAS to establish precedence over any speculation that is being done here!)

Fifth:

Reading things into the rules makes for REALLY silly arguments. Lets run with the rules that we have and not get too Klintonian about this stuff.

Haven't we picked this nit to death?
:eek:

Slowstdy · « **Reply #17 on:** June 24, 2005, 04:45:26 AM »

Don't give me that BS.
Rule Book
Page 13. On the one-fith scale targets used in Smallbore Rifle all feet should be 1 inch wide by 2 inch long.
Air Gun silhouette feet should be as follows:
Etc. Etc

Appoliges on the back of $3.50 bills please. (Cost of rule Book)

Now y'all got me Pi$$ Off
Limey

K2 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 24, 2005, 05:47:34 AM »

When you start arguing over the direction an animal faces you must have too much time on your hands. LOL

Does anyone really care if an animal is looking left or right?

Quote from: nomad

The problem is that that shop analogy is apples to oranges.

There's no question that a part designed to interact with any other part HAS to be made specific to the design drawing. But silhouette targets are stand-alone. They don't have to be oriented any particular way to "work". (And reversing them really doesn't change the surface area of the "presentation".)

IMO, unless you can find a specific passage in the rules requiring that a particular animal face a particular direction (I don't know of any) then the orientation is up to the match directors/target setters/accident/whomever/whichever/whatever. ;-)

Dealing with that from the competitors' standpoint is "part of the game".

Slowstdy · « **Reply #19 on:** June 24, 2005, 05:49:59 AM »

Yep, I don't give a .....
I'm off shooting. have a good weekend all.
cheers
Limey

TX Charlie · « **Reply #20 on:** June 24, 2005, 06:05:57 AM »

Rule Book
Page 13. On the one-fith scale targets used in Smallbore Rifle all feet should be 1 inch wide by 2 inch long.
Air Gun silhouette feet should be as follows:

1" X 2" is a 2 dimensional measurement, not the 3 dimensional world we live in (remember X, Y and Z).... the large "foot" that we see on the cast animals is due to the casting process and the material used to make these animals. The 1" X 2" foot was normally made out of 1" X 2" X .250" flat steel. When the cast animals were introduced we did get a substantially larger target to shoot at.

nomad · « **Reply #21 on:** June 24, 2005, 08:47:18 AM »

Dave,

If you won't take the clear response from the NRA silhouette department director -- or his report that national competition has been held (under direct NRA supervision and without problems) on targets that you consider illegal -- I'd guess that we're at an impasse.

If I attend any matches where the target orientation -- or lack of feet on reset style targets -- is protested (successfully), I'll make note of it.

AMB · « **Reply #22 on:** June 24, 2005, 03:19:26 PM »

Don't care except when they're running at, or away from me, LOL!

K2 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2005, 05:53:48 AM »

Heli stands for Helium gas, arc is for the electric arc. Put em together and you get Heliarc. Old term and few use helium for shielding gas anymore.

Quote from: Slowstdy

Billy. If I had paid the $ you paid, I would want them right. I have gone to a great deal of work to get all my targets right. Ive had a good look at several of mikes targets, some had feet on some did not, some of the frames get twisted up real quick some not. So no Im not joking, the rules in this case are very simple, make them like the drawings out of the materials specified and put feet on them to the specifications. Done deal, no ambiguity clean cut. As an engineer just the way I like it, specifications and drawings no one should ever get it wrong. I know its not important but if the companies who make the cast animals can get it right, all seem to have a dimple on the back so you cant get them wrong, then I dont see a problem with a commercial company making resetables right.

Sillywetshooter. Not quite. They face Chickens right, Pigs and Turkeys left, Rams right.
As I see it, it means were ever you go, every thing should look the same.

As a side, any know what Heliarc means? I know its TIG welding, but were did the word come from? Its not in any of my dictionaries.
The word is used in Rule 4.1 Air Gun silhouette targets.
Cheers Dave C. A.K.A Limey

Slowstdy · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2005, 02:16:21 PM »

Hi K2, Thanks I love that kind of stuff. It took me weeks to find out the origin of the whole 9 yards...... Now i got ya going...LOL
Cheers
Limey