Author Topic: Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzleloader: REVIEW  (Read 5040 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzleloader: REVIEW
« on: December 21, 2003, 04:33:28 PM »
Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzleloader

The tested gun was the new for 2004 model, Savage 10-ML-II with Savage’s innovative Accu-Trigger. I outfitted this example with a pair of Warne steel bases, part # M902, and standard height Warne Maxima steel quick release rings. This was topped off with a Sightron SII 3 x 12 x 42 Mil-Dot, with the parallax set by Sightron to 200 yards. The Sightron scope fits the Savage beautifully, allowing the retention of the factory rear Williams fiber-optic ramp.

This was the stainless steel, laminated stock version. The Savage’s laminated stock is the finest I’ve used on a muzzleloader—not only attractive and checkered, but this stock’s checkering really works. It affords a sure grip, in stark contrast to many of the slippery plywood stocks offered, with the few that do feature checkering offering it for decorative purposes only.

Compared with the last 10ML-II tested, there are a few improvements worth mentioning, so I believe I will. The tang safety on last year’s 10-ML-II was thin, small and stiff. Almost flush with the tang, it was difficult to get off with bare skin, a very difficult chore with gloved or frozen hands. From a personal perspective, this was the biggest single negative on the previous model—enough, in my view, to hit the tundra with a different gun. Thankfully, Savage has greatly enlarged the safety button; it now sits well above the tang, and is extremely easy and intuitive to get off.

Last year’s model had a flat rear receiver, the receiver on the new ML-10 II is round—so takes a different rear base. The previous 10-ML was plagued by a poor trigger out of the box. Any competent gunsmith can lighten the old trigger to 3-3/4 pounds or so, but most folks that want a quality trigger have replaced the standard Savage Trigger with an approximately $60 “Sharpshooter” aftermarket trigger, or even a Jewell trigger. The previous trigger, as supplied, was heavy enough to handicap my shooting at the range.

The Accu-Trigger is nothing short of spectacular—it breaks at 1.9 lbs out –of the box, with no grit and little take-up. A delight at the range, but I’d actually prefer a bit heavier setting for hunting use. The choice is yours, as the Accu-Trigger is user-adjustable from a 1.5 to 6 pound break. No other muzzleloading manufacturer offers a trigger designed to be user-adjustable. The only other manufacturer, that I am aware of, that will adjust your trigger to your specifications is Knight Rifles, and they offer this as a free service. They can do so, without voiding any warranties, as the Knight family of companies makes their own triggers, having bought out a Timney plant. For the rest, it is either see your local gunsmith, or go aftermarket. In the case of most rifle companies, this will void any factory warranty, for the obvious liability reasons. Savage has hit a home run with their Accu-Trigger, and it is a true delight—just as in the Savage .308 and .223 bolt guns I’ve fired. I purposely tried to defeat the additional safety afforded by the Accu-Trigger, pulling on the bottom tip of the trigger rather than the normal pull method, which automatically requires pulling the center section flush, not unlike the Glock system. The bolt would partially move, then automatically block itself, just as designed. The Savage Trigger is a wonderful, groundbreaking achievement.

The ramrod has been upgraded to fiberglass from the previous plastic, though still fits far too loosely in its lone ferrule. Some black electrician’s tape is the fix for this, until Savage decides to give ramrod retention a closer look. The “Savage Tool” is still required for breechplug removal. Not great thinking, as there is no reason I can see that a standard SAE socket head cannot be added to the current breechplug. The breechplug retains the “vent-liner” on the powder side, which is a hollow 1/8” Allen head screw with a .030” orifice to focus the 209 shotshell primer’s flame. Savage still recommends replacement of the vent-liner ever 100 shots with smokeless powder, every 50 shots or with Pyrodex—though I was personally able to get a couple of hundred shots off with Pyrodex pellets in previous testing, with no apparent loss in performance. Personally, I’d like to see a more erosion free vent-liner of ceramic or other materials. This stands out vividly, as the rest of the gun is so maintenance free. While the Savage 10ML, designed by Henry Ball, is revolutionary—its owner’s manual is not. I find it skimpy, and needs amplification badly. All non-Form 4473 arms deserve exemplary manuals, the Savage manual is minimalist compared to the better manuals supplied by Thompson, for example.

With the strongest barreled action of any muzzleloader, you are free to use 150 grains of loose blackpowder or Triple Seven, with as heavy a projectile as you care to punish yourself with. For smokeless powder use, only saboted projectiles are recommended, as the sabot serves as an auxiliary pressure gasket if the operator does something irresponsible. The list of the Savage’s features is breathtaking, not just the Accu-Trigger, but it remains the only truly sealed bolt-action muzzleloader made, is factory pillar bedded, accuracy-tested, and test fired. The 100 yard test target supplied with the gun was a .575” group, using 42 grains of Vihtavouri N110 pushing a 250 grain saboted bullet. For those who enjoy customizing loads to suit their own needs, the Savage is a dream come true. Savage lists three basic powders with 250 and 300 grain projectiles that are “time-tested, audience proven” loads. Yet, muzzleloading enthusiasts will quickly realize that the listed combinations barely scratch the surface.

The consummate Savage 10-ML aficionado is muzzleloading expert Toby Bridges, who has fired more rounds through his battery of 10-ML’s than any man alive. Toby’s continuing research is regularly reported on his website: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com , and is a fabulous resource for any muzzleloader looking to get the most out his gun. For most, getting superlative performance out of the Savage is no more difficult than taking advantage of all the hard work Toby Bridges has done for you.

Naturally, I wanted to try a few things a bit differently, in my never-ending quest to discover things that don’t work well. Though thorough load development is a long-term project (if you choose it to be, and I do) I decided to test Vihtavouri N120 (a tad slower than Toby’s favorite, N110) and Accurate Arms XMP-5744 powders, for starters, in conjunction with the Precision Rifle 340 grain Dead Center sabots. You can use the Lee powder dippers alone for smokeless, if you wish. Contingent on the granulation of the powder, you can easily get within two-tenths of a grain charge weight. I began testing with 43.8 grains of N120, which is the Lee 3.4cc Dipper equivalent. I like to begin with a casual scoop from the dipper into the platen of my RCBS electronic scale, and then dial it in with my Redding Model 5 powder trickler, pouring it into a small plastic vial for range use. The first shot from the 10-ML was 6” directly left of the bull at 25 yards, so—a little knob spinning, and the second shot was on the paper at 100 yards. It doesn’t always work out quite that easily, but it is nice when it does. It was a breezy day, but the groups averaged about 1-1/4 inches at 100 yards nevertheless. Astonished at the lack of recoil, I didn’t find out until my next range session why. That charge moves the 340 grain Dead Center at only about 1410 fps through my chronos, so now I know. Surprisingly, there was only 25 fps or so of velocity deviation, but it will take quite a bit more N120 to get respectable velocities. No misfires or hang-fires were experienced.

On a subsequent, and even windier day, featuring a delightful 30 mph gusty crosswind, I used 41.3 grains of Accurate Arms XMP-5744, the Lee 3.1cc Dipper equivalent. This propelled the 340 grain Dead Center at about 1925 feet per second, with light recoil compared to what you would have to burn with Pyrodex to approach that velocity. The groups blew about 6” to the left of the bull, but group it did—hovering between 1 and 1-1/4 inch groups at 120 yards average group size, with a best of day group of .850 inch, center to center. Though hardly the fastest load obtainable with the Savage, it remains a 202 yard maximum point blank range load assuming a 7 inch kill zone, with over 1800 foot pounds of kinetic energy on target at that range. The fun is just beginning!

The 2004 Savage 10ML-10 II Stainless Steel / Laminated Accu-Trigger Smokeless muzzleloader is simply the most impressive muzzleloader I’ve ever tested. There must be a reason not to buy one, but right now—I just can’t think of one.

Offline jh45gun

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2003, 12:23:35 AM »
Randy I love muzzle loaders but I really have a problem with this concept of a muzzle loader using smokeless. It gives the BATF a " in" on regulating muzzle loaders wich they are trying to do now with guns that can have other barrels like the TC or the NEF and 2. Some one is eventully going to try this in a regular gun it may have not happend yet but I think it will sooner or later. 3. It may cause some states to limit or not have inline use at all due to this smokeless powder gun.  I think Savage has just opened up a can of worms with this one.  :(  I know you and Toby are sold on this concept with others and that is fine if it is your thing. I just hope this concept does not come back to bite us  in the butt.  Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline big6x6

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2003, 03:06:29 AM »
"Randy I love muzzle loaders but I really have a problem with this concept of a muzzle loader using smokeless. It gives the BATF a " in" on regulating muzzle loaders wich they are trying to do now with guns that can have other barrels like the TC or the NEF"

This is precisely the reason I was not so fired up about "smokeless powder" muzzleloaders to begin with.  I believe it IS only a matter of time before regulation begins on ALL muzzleloaders.

This does NOT mean I won't get one as I probably WILL!
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Offline woodseye

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2003, 03:18:59 AM »
Regs seem to be loosening up in most states due to out of control deer herds. All a state has to do is outlaw smokeless if they want to control the use of the Savage to BP or BP substitute.

I'm waiting for the accu trigger models to become available after the first to get one as owning a Savage CF with accu trigger now has spoiled me for anything else. Good test report Randy and sounds like an improved ML'er to boot. The safety was always something I adjusted on all my Savages to make it easy to operate with gloves on......the new design that I have tried is a world of difference better. High velocities - economical shooting cost - low recoil - no corrosive propellant problems - and no need to spit clean between shots are all reasons to give this gun a long look.

     woods
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Shoot Straight - Shoot Often - Shoot Smokeless - Shoot Savage!


Offline RandyWakeman

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2003, 04:45:47 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Randy I love muzzle loaders but I really have a problem with this concept of a muzzle loader using smokeless. It gives the BATF a " in" on regulating muzzle loaders wich they are trying to do now with guns that can have other barrels like the TC or the NEF and 2.  Jim


Hello Jim,

You are certainly not alone, by any means. That was my initial reaction as well, but I was wrong. Naturally, the NEF Huntsman and T/C Encore are already BATF Form 4473 arms, the Savage is not.

If I had to live every day worrying about what our bureaucracy might or might not do-- that's just not living to me at all. I can't say what behavior directed by a bunch of "what ifs" actually is, but freedom it certainly is not. Slaves may obsess over what their masters may "do to them"-- but, this is not a nation of slaves.

I don't know who the puppet and who the puppetmaster is, but I'll stick with belief in the Second Amendment, and the concept of government of, by, and for the people. At this stage, I need no government official or game department to tell me what powder is: they sure don't know what "Triple Seven" is, and seemingly have little problem with pellets that are not powder at all.

As for "Big Brother" regulation-- blackpowder is already far more tightly regulated than smokeless powder is.

Offline jh45gun

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2003, 07:08:09 AM »
Randy all good points I just like the idea that most muzzle loaders are not regulated and you can buy them mail order with out a license. Just hope that never changes. I have a license for curio and relics so it is not like I do cannot order some guns mail order but for a lot of folks it sure is handy to look at a catalog like cabela's and order a muzzle loader right to the door. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline fairchase

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2003, 06:36:45 AM »
Do you think the Long hunters Scoiety would reject a record book trophy, if you told them you used a Savage Muzzleloader? even if you claimed that smokeless powder was not used? Your thoughts...
Dream big,
Greg


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Offline sheephunterab

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2003, 06:43:59 AM »
Quote
Do you think the Long hunters Scoiety would reject a record book trophy, if you told them you used a Savage Muzzleloader? even if you claimed that smokeless powder was not used? Your thoughts...


I can't imagine why they would reject it.

Offline jh45gun

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2003, 07:26:30 AM »
Quote from: sheephunterab
Quote
Do you think the Long hunters Scoiety would reject a record book trophy, if you told them you used a Savage Muzzleloader? even if you claimed that smokeless powder was not used? Your thoughts...


I can't imagine why they would reject it.


I would have my doubts about it and I bet others would also. At least with the muzzle loaders that use black and the substitutes you know smokeless cannot be used. I suppose those that use smokeless would argue that the substitutes is not black powder either which it is not but is close enough in performance that all is equal with smokeless it is not. It would be the same as Me claiming I shot a trophy useing my 45/70 with a smokeless load not quite the same is it? Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline sheephunterab

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2003, 07:37:40 AM »
The Savage loaded with Pyro, T7 or blackpowder is no different than any other muzzleloader, I can't see any problem. They've accepted all of my entries that I shot with Pyro and Pyro pellets out of a variety of in-lines.

Offline RandyWakeman

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2003, 07:45:56 AM »
Quote

I would have my doubts about it and I bet others would also. At least with the muzzle loaders that use black and the substitutes you know smokeless cannot be used.


You can always ask the respective parties.

As to saying "smokeless cannot be used"-- it not only can be, but has been used in muzzleloaders for over a hundred years.

Not smart, not recommended-- but done today more often than you might think, including last week.

Offline fairchase

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2003, 08:19:57 AM »
I just wanted to hear your opinions, because I just sumitted two trophy animals and I  was a little suprised to see the question; what brand of muzzleloader did you use? Along with all the normal questions regarding bullet, powder and rifle action type.

I didn't use a Savage rifle. I was just throwing out a 'what if' question, as I would like to purchase one soon.

For a 'Book" entry they will  only accepct black Powder or the normal subs like Pyrodex, clearshot etc, but if a person used a Savage Muzzleloader  and claimed it for the record, it could throw up a red flag.

IMO, a hunter might run into problems if the trophy was a #1 all-time world record, and it got lots of press.
Dream big,
Greg


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Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2003, 08:30:59 AM »
Like all record books, the Longhunter must rely on the honesty of the hunter. Who's to say you didn't shoot it with a 7mm? Who's to say it wasn't shot with the aid of a spotlight? If the hunter signs the entry, that's good enough for me. If he tries to cheat, who is he really cheating.....himself. If you say you used Pyro or blackpowder, that is good enough for me.

Offline Omega

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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2003, 08:45:06 AM »
If he tries to cheat, who is he really cheating.....himself.

Ain't that the truth. People who don't cheat never think very far out of the box but, you're right it could be shot with anything and claimed to be a ML kill.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2003, 09:18:23 AM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
Quote

I would have my doubts about it and I bet others would also. At least with the muzzle loaders that use black and the substitutes you know smokeless cannot be used.


You can always ask the respective parties.

As to saying "smokeless cannot be used"-- it not only can be, but has been used in muzzleloaders for over a hundred years.

Not smart, not recommended-- but done today more often than you might think, including last week.


Care to explain that last part? Did some one use it in a gun other than a Savage?? Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline RandyWakeman

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2003, 09:48:06 AM »
It is not allowed by any manufacturer except Savage-- yet I know of many who are using it in straight and duplex form. No, I certainly don't suggest, encourage, or recommend it.

On a safer note, Henry Ball himself has been doing custom smokeless conversions for years on a wide variety of actions-- and an aftermarket smokeless barrel is being offered for the NEF H&R Huntsman currently. The Savage was designed for it from scratch, though, and costs a huge amount less than a custom conversion.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2003, 01:33:53 PM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
It is not allowed by any manufacturer except Savage-- yet I know of many who are using it in straight and duplex form. No, I certainly don't suggest, encourage, or recommend it.

On a safer note, Henry Ball himself has been doing custom smokeless conversions for years on a wide variety of actions-- and an aftermarket smokeless barrel is being offered for the NEF H&R Huntsman currently. The Savage was designed for it from scratch, though, and costs a huge amount less than a custom conversion.


That deal about the Huntsman barrel is kinda confusing as the Huntsman is based on the shotgun reciever instead of the rifle one and due to the pressures involved NEF will not fit rifle barrels to Huntsman frames just the shotgun barrels. SO that said I am guessing that the smokeless powder barrel has lower pressure than the centerfire rifle barrels? Who is making this barrel NEF or some one else.  Just wondering as I have not heard any thing about it. Also I would guess if some one else is making it are they fitting the barrels to the reciever as these barrels are factory fitted but then I am sure you know that.  Not disputing you just curious. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline RandyWakeman

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2003, 07:41:13 PM »
http://www.hr1871.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi is the place for H&R Q & A.

BP muzzleloading barrels can be fitted to either the shotgun or rifle receivers, you can bet the smokeless barrels are for the rifle receivers only.

Offline jh45gun

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Savage 10ML-II Accu-Trigger Smokeless Muzzl
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2003, 07:44:15 PM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
http://www.hr1871.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi is the place for H&R Q & A.

BP muzzleloading barrels can be fitted to either the shotgun or rifle receivers, you can bet the smokeless barrels are for the rifle receivers only.


Thats kinda what I figured thanks for clearing that up. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.