Can we clarify "collective bargaining" please ?

[billy_56081]

I bet they don't have the set of specialized skills in the narrow field I work in. 

And BTW I was #1 last year in billing so I got a nice raise.

[Buckskin]

"Wages and salaries of state and local employees are lower than those for private sector employees with comparable earnings determinants, such as education and work experience. State workers typically earn 11 percent less and local workers 12 percent less."


Than why do sooo many people stay their entire careers in state employment???  Insane benefits, high pay, and no accountability.

And why are they fighting soooo hard to keep their bargaining rights??? Because they know they will find nothing better...

[DDZ]

The fact is that States and local governments do have huge debt, and it is insane, and makes no sense at all to have public employees unionizing to negotiate against the public. Its time to start negotiating with public employees the way we negotiate in the private sector when the company is facing bankruptcy.  Walker is spot on in what he is doing, and its what the tax payers want, and the reason he got voted in.

When Reagan was facing tough budget decisions back in the early 80’s , he said that he got literally hundreds of letters from soldiers telling him, “If giving us a pay cut will help our country, cut our pay”. Just imagine one of those public unionized people, that are further trying to rape the tax payers, saying something like that. Military personal make much less than these selfish unionized workers that think everything revolves around them, and who are whining about having to pay a little bit toward health care. They act like there is no end to amount of tax payer money, while holding the tax payers hostage for more and more stuff. Kind of makes me sick.
   Kind of tells you something about unions, when unionized workers that work for a company that has to show a profit, are down to 7.2 percent. While public worker unions are growing like wildfire.

[DDZ]

TM, I don't know where you get your info at, but the fact is that in 09 the average federal worker earned $81,258, while the average private sector worker made $50,462. I'm sure that didn't change much last year. If it did the gap got wider.  Where the gap gets even bigger is benefits. Average private sector worker received around 10,500 in benefits per year, while the federal worker gets $42,000 a year in benefits. The gap may be smaller with state workers, but don't try to make it as though the poor state unionized workers need more from the trough, to be equal with private sector workers.
Take for instance a state turnpike worker that works the pay booth. All they do is collect money, and hand change back to the driver. In the private sector a job like this would probably be minimum wage, but these state turnpike workers are making over $20.00 per hour, with loads of great benefits. 
Funny how collecting your salary in taxpayer dollars is something people are drawn to. If they are such bad paying jobs, why do people fight tooth and nail to keep them? If they don't think they are being paid enough they are free to look for other work, but both you and I know something like that would never happen. Heck, not when there is taxpayer money to be had. 

[ironglow]

 Cabin4 asks if public employees stay in the union and on the federal, state or county payroll for lesser pay, why do they do it ?
 That of course was a rhetorical question; since #1) Cabin4 knows as well as I do that they do not work for lesser pay.
   .. and #2) If they left their protected position, they would have to compete out there where the gutsy people work. The good ones would succeed..the incompetents would be swept away.
   In the real world, even if they spent 4 weekends getting their master's degree, if they can't perform they get relegated to where they finaly can perform..even if it's flipping burgers.

[Cabin4]

Average for Wisconsin teachers for the 2010 school year: a $51,000 salary, plus $30,000 worth of benefits for a total of $81,000 worth of compensation. Does not include the deferred pension funding compensation. That is in addition.

Private sector salary in 2010 was $46,000 with $20,000 worth of benefits for a total compensation of $66,000. No pension.

Who's making more TM?

[Buckskin]

"I assume government workers have less movement in the work place because they are more stable, have families and prefer to not move around for money reason only, and are parts of their communities." quote from tm7

Ahhhh no, maybe you should ask some of them.  I did and didn't even  have to ask. Most won't say salary because most sectors aren't that out of whack from private, but pension, health care and retirement at 55 (for teachers anyway).

I just found out last night that 27 of the teachers in our school district are applying for retirement since the Walker proposal. Usually 5-7 per year.  These "its just about the kids" losers want to stick it to the district and taxpayers.  One math teacher walked off his job saying put all my built up sick leave toward the rest of the year, I'm done...  Good riddance to him and all of the rest of the losers who are just there to take advantage of they system.  We will have better teachers with new ideas, and who will make less money to boot...  There is usually 200 apps for teaching positions around here, I think we will make due....

Collective bargaining created these monsters and Walker will be the leader in cutting them down... Have you ever stacked dominoes??? It a pain setting them up, but it's damn fun to watch them fall!  Grab a beer fellas, it's time to watch them fall!!!

[scootrd]

When Reagan was facing tough budget decisions back in the early 80’s , he said that he got literally hundreds of letters from soldiers telling him, “If giving us a pay cut will help our country, cut our pay”.

I was one of those soldiers just back from Korea , and actually the truth was we were all called into formation and told , if media interviewed us off post about not getting an increase our response was to be "no comment" Any other response that made the news was in violation of a direct order from the base commander -
and that's the real truth.  I was there and I lived it.

and lets talk about the Reagan strategy for a moment  (And I liked the man so I am not bashing him, but lets not skew history) -  He campaigned on lower taxes to stimulate the economy. It’s conservative lore that Reagan cut taxes, "No one was authorized to talk about tax increases on Ronald Reagan’s watch, no matter what kind of tax, no matter how justified it was." Yet raising taxes is exactly what Reagan did. One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year’s reduction. Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 , and once more in 1984.

Reagan raised taxes a grand total of four times just between 1982-84.

Neither did he reduce the size of government — the number of federal workers rose 61,000 under Reagan, and The deficit tripled from the time he took office until the time he left.

In order to cover new federal budget deficits, the United States borrowed heavily both domestically and abroad, raising the national debt from $700 billion to $3 trillion and the United States moved from being the world's largest international creditor to the world's largest debtor nation. Reagan described the new debt as the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.

[billy_56081]

Well it won't be long and the votes will be cast. The union lice will have their blood supply cut off. The other states will look at the sucess and soon follow. We win!

[billy_56081]

Once again the decent conservatives have to clean up the parasite's mess.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/so-who-is-cleaning-up-the-wisconsin-capitol-after-union-protests/

[scootrd]

Billy not sure what polls you are referring too , every poll either national or local want Walker to back off Collective bargaining issue.


Latest from the local WPRI Poll (this is just a poll of Wisconsinites)

Bargaining rights: Walker has proposed limiting collective bargaining to wages. Exactly half of the respondents (50 percent) say that public employees are willing to compromise on pensions and benefits but limiting bargaining rights does nothing to balance the state’s budget situation and is really just an attempt to get rid of public employee unions. only Forty-three percent agree the proposed changes are a necessary reform because they will give local governments greater flexibility to control their budgets over several years.

There is real opposition to Governor Walker's proposal to restrict the collective bargaining rights of workers, but the intensity depends on how the question is worded. 

When the issue is framed as limiting bargaining rights to help local governments, 47 percent are in favor and 50 percent are opposed. 

When the issue is framed as eliminating bargaining rights to ultimately dismantle public employee unions, then the public overwhelmingly disapproves, with 32 in favor and 58 percent opposed.

Wisconsin is highly polarized, and very few Wisconsinites lack opinions about Walker, Democrats and unions.
Walker: Slightly more than half (53 percent) of the respondents have a somewhat or strongly unfavorable opinion of Walker while 43 percent have a somewhat or strongly favorable opinion of him.

[billy_56081]

Our poll is 80% to 20% in favor of Walker. It won't be long and the vote to cut the blood supply to the lice will be cast. It will be over and when the rest of the states see the sucess they will follow. Your AFL/CIO poll is no less biased than mine.

[scootrd]

Our poll is 80% to 20% in favor of Walker. It won't be long and the vote to cut the blood supply to the lice will be cast. It will be over and when the rest of the states see the sucess they will follow. Your AFL/CIO poll is no less biased than mine.

It was a WPRI Wisconsin Policy Research Institute poll, They are a free market think tank  -  and has nothing to do with AFL/CIO - and it LOCAL and only polled Wisconsinites.

Nice try at deception.

No Matter what polls you want to look at though (dismissing the fantasy league Billy poll of course) , they all state the same , approx 67% Do not want collective Bargaining eliminated. Sorry your the minority. I know it's hard for you to comprehend the majority of Americans don't want the elimination of collective bargaining. That's ok. it;s your perrogative.

[ironglow]

  Neither of the two major parties are doing well, but the Republicans have an edge. This is a more important poll:
  http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/just_32_see_democrats_agenda_as_mainstream

[scootrd]

And this one specifically addresses the collective bargaining issue -

A new Rasmussen poll found Thursday that a clear majority of Wisconsin voters oppose Gov. Scott Walker's (R) efforts to strip collective bargaining rights for public employee unions. Fifty-two percent said they oppose weakening collective bargaining rights, while 39 percent were in favor of it.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_poll_support_for_budget_cutting_not_for_weakening_collective_bargaining_rights

[ironglow]

  You're correct in that one poll shows such a result, but people in Wisconsin must get informed.  One poll says they don't want collective bargaining wiped out, but in this one they want spending cuts, rather than tax increases.  Now they have to be informed that spending cuts can only come when the unions are brought under control, otherwise, once this "crisis" is over, the unions will just go back to their greedy, demanding ways.
  Perhaps Ohio will accomplish the proper ends first, thereby openingthe door for Wisconsin.
   http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_voters_prefer_spending_cuts_to_reduce_state_budget_deficit

[Cabin4]

Scootrd...

..But of course the average working stiff in Wisconsin doesn't want collective bargaining to end, union dissolution, or wage cuts normalized. It means they're be next...!! As the Bell Tolls.....what goes around comes around.

They elected Walker for the promise of repairing the budget, (that is if it really has a problem which it appears it doesn't in reality);;;...and to bring budget balance in other ways, such as fair taxation, using cash reserves, ending corruption, using new technologies, attrition, or any other number of means...THEY DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM TO DISMANTLE THE WORKING CLASS AND COMMUNITY, STARTING WITH THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND HANDING THE STATE OVER TO SPECIAL INTEREST and creating a WalMart state.

Average working guy isn't dumb, and knows what goes around comes around, and he has better survival instincts then the average 'talker' guys.

..TM7
.

Your right TM, the average working guy is not dumb. He knows he's paying more in taxes and his salary is not going up while the unions make more and get more with his tax dollars!

And whats this about a budget problem? I thought you said Wisconsion has NO budget problems and this whole issue is a farce put together by Walker? I'm confused!

[Cabin4]

Well, we are going to disagree on the budget problem issue. there is no question in my mind that Wisconsin, like most other states does have a severe budget problem. In fact, that budget problem is so bad, that the Obama administration has given the states cash, to help. So, I really think you need to look deeper into this.

The private sector job situation will improve and the average guy (who you and & agree is not dumb), will have more job opportunities and better pay when corp./business taxes are reduced. It’s just damn time, the government cut spending in unison to help business invest.

[charles p]

Collective bagaining means union members pay dues, then get a tax deduction for the dues (Form 2106 I think).  The dues are used to leverage the democrats to raise the members salary and benefits at the public's expense. in exchange for the member's vote and support.  The public has to pony up more taxes to cover the tax deductible dues the members get from the Democrats plus the salary and benefits of the members, the union officials, and the Democrats that are elected by the union members.

Without the Democrats the unions can not exist and without the union votes the Democrats can not win.  Is this the type system we need for our government and its  employees?  I hope not!

[Buckskin]

Look at all the teachers "in it for the kids".  Errrrr, emeritus....  Yeah, that's a common thing in the private sector...

140 teacher retirement requests approved
Updated: Thursday, 03 Mar 2011, 5:48 PM CST
Published : Thursday, 03 Mar 2011, 2:12 PM CST

GREEN BAY - The Green Bay School Board has approved a large number of retirement requests from teachers and administrators.

With the future of the state budget uncertain, 140 teachers and 15 administrators asked to join the emeritus program. That works out to about 1 out of every 12 teachers in the district.

The emeritus program gives one full year's salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers' contract through collective bargaining.

Last year 26 teachers and staff members applied for the program.

Several other area school districts (many who do not have the emeritus program) have reported rises in retirement filings as well.

Sleazy deals like this are happening all over the state to cheat the taxpayer's.  I sure am going to miss this collective baraining thing...

[Buckskin]

and lets talk about the Reagan strategy for a moment  (And I liked the man so I am not bashing him, but lets not skew history) -  He campaigned on lower taxes to stimulate the economy. It's conservative lore that Reagan cut taxes, "No one was authorized to talk about tax increases on Ronald Reagan’s watch, no matter what kind of tax, no matter how justified it was." Yet raising taxes is exactly what Reagan did. One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year’s reduction. Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 , and once more in 1984.

And he also inherited a failing economy, unemployment at over 9% and interest rates over 10%.  When he left he had created 16 million jobs and stymied inflation.  Your ZerObama inherited interest rates in the 4's and unemployment at less than 8% which increased to almost 11 and increased our debt by +$2,000,000,000,000 and created ahhhh no jobs to speak of.  But he speaks well (in front of a teleprompter)...

[scootrd]

and lets talk about the Reagan strategy for a moment  (And I liked the man so I am not bashing him, but lets not skew history) -  He campaigned on lower taxes to stimulate the economy. It's conservative lore that Reagan cut taxes, "No one was authorized to talk about tax increases on Ronald Reagan’s watch, no matter what kind of tax, no matter how justified it was." Yet raising taxes is exactly what Reagan did. One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year’s reduction. Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 , and once more in 1984.

And he also inherited a failing economy, unemployment at over 9% and interest rates over 10%.  When he left he had created 16 million jobs and stymied inflation.  Your ZerObama inherited interest rates in the 4's and unemployment at less than 8% which increased to almost 11 and increased our debt by +$2,000,000,000,000 and created ahhhh no jobs to speak of.  But he speaks well (in front of a teleprompter)...

In order to cover new federal budget deficits, the United States borrowed heavily both domestically and abroad,
raising the national debt from $700 billion to $3 trillion and the United States moved from being the world's
largest international creditor to the world's largest debtor nation.
Reagan Himself described the new debt as the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.

[Buckskin]

Yeah I read that in your previous post...

At least he realized his mistakes, a thing that liberals can never bring themselves to do... Goes back to that genetic disorder I think.

[scootrd]

Yeah I read that in your previous post...

At least he realized his mistakes, a thing that liberals can never bring themselves to do... Goes back to that genetic disorder I think.

Don't get me wrong , I still rate Reagan as # 3 in my book for all time greatest Presidents (Though perhaps for different reasons than you would) and Though I may have disagreed with some of his policies I loved is candor , morals and integrity.  And Nancy as First Lady was a peach - JMHO

[Buckskin]

A dedicated WEAC union worker was attending a convention in Madison
and decided to check out the local brothels.

When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam, "Is this a union
house?" "No,'"she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20,'"she answered.

Offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off down the
street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop. His search
continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded,
"Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules."

The man asked, "And, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the union man said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a
stunningly attractive blue-eyed blonde. "I'd like her," he said.

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-
year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and
according to union rules, she's next.'"