Author Topic: 7mm TCU expansion test  (Read 4301 times)

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Offline Junior1942

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7mm TCU expansion test
« on: February 12, 2011, 11:53:50 AM »
This afternoon I shot 4, 175 gr 7mm bullets @ ~1600 fps into wet newsprint.  This through my 10" 7mm TCU barrel

#1: 175 gr Hornady RN w/added .125" x .125" HP = ~9".  Good mushroom.  1 1/2" cavity in wet newspapers.

#2: 175  gr Hornady RN = ~12" for the jacket & ~13" for the core.  There's
no bone in wet newspapers, so that doesn't look good. 1" cavity.

#3" 175 gr Hornady RN = ~19". Good mushroom and perfect base.  1" cavity.

#4: 175 gr Nosler Partition = ~12".  Perfect mushroom but deformed base
which meant it went sideways some which meant it would have gone 19" or so
like #3.  1" cavity.

My added HP in the Hornady 175 gr RN won't work @ 1600 fps on deer , IMHO, because
of lack of penetration compared to the other bullets.  I'd have to take side
shots only.

Both the plain Hornady RN and the Nosler SP Partition will work on deer at
1600 fps velocity for all but rear-on shots.  The 3 non-destroyed bullets
almost doubled their diameters, so there's plenty of expansion.  The Partition is especially dangerous looking.  I suspect newsprint is a little hard on lead noses as the
Partition lost mushroom.   Looks like it was scraped off.  It lost 20 grs
and the 2 weighable Hornadys lost 5 grs and 9 grs.

I'm gonna call the Partition the winner of this test. I'll soon have some
AA-2015 powder which should give me 200 fps more with the 175 gr bullets.
Tomorrow I'll shoot the 120 gr Sierra Pro Hunter @ 1900 fps.



 

Offline Elwood

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 01:05:28 PM »
To put your test into perspective, I have shot Hornady 130 grn bullet into sopping wet newspaper from my 270 winchester at around 3050fps. They only penetrated around six inches. I know that they will shoot through most deer but wet newsprint is much tougher than flesh.
Elwood
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Offline shot1

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 01:25:21 PM »
How far away from you news print media are you shooting?  Muzzle velocity means nothing, it is impact velocity you need to consider. I also concur that wet news print is much tougher than a deer. Most Nosler partitions expand really quickly and loose the front half of the bullet completely. They usually work pretty well even at low velocity. 

Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 02:47:35 PM »
How far away from you news print media are you shooting?  Muzzle velocity means nothing, it is impact velocity you need to consider. I also concur that wet news print is much tougher than a deer. Most Nosler partitions expand really quickly and loose the front half of the bullet completely. They usually work pretty well even at low velocity.
About 4 feet away.  Impact velocity would be almost exactly the muzzle velocity stated.  The test was for comparative purposes, i.e., I wanted to see if my added hollowpoint made the 175 gr Hornady RN better than the unaltered RN for 100 yd max deer hunting.  It wasn't.  The test worked.

Offline sweetwyominghome

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »
Thanks for the post. Any photos?

Like others have noted, wet newsprint is much tougher on a bullet than flesh. I can assure you that the 175 grain Partition at 1600 fps will not expand at all on a ribcage-shot deer.

In fact, unless heavy bone is impacted, most 7mm bullets will afford precious little -- if any -- expansion below 1900 fps or so save for a few such as the 120 grain Nosler BT and the 110 grain Speer TNT.

Also, a bullet that penetrates 9" into packed, wet newsprint is perfectly adequate for deer (assuming the construction of the projectile and the impact velocity equates to adequate expansion/tissue destruction).

A very simple but telling test to gauge if a bullet is expanding is to fill a Prestone jug with water, set it up with a safe backstop and place a 1/4" piece of plywood 6 feet behind the anti-freeze container. Back off to the desired distance and center-punch the jug. If the hole in the plywood is bullet-size or barely over, you will likely get no expansion on deer at that velocity. If you have lots of shrapnel in evidence and perhaps an overly-large hole through the wood, the bullet is likely too fragile for such applications. But a relatively clean hole in the plywood of 1.5-2x bullet diameter indicates excellent potential for use on medium game.

Here are a few recovered 7mms & others from past projects:









Here are some photos taken during a test using the then-new Berger 7mm 140 grain VLD Hunting bullet.







The last 2 are of a Sierra 130 grain Single Shot Pistol bullet (no longer made) taken from a whitetail buck shot at 108 yards with a load that developed 2505 fps MV. It entered the center of the chest as the deer faced me and wound up in the left ham, taking out a chunk of spine along the way.

But even this "soft" bullet expanded very little if the impact velocity fell below 1800 fps or so.





Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 02:35:03 AM »
Home, I'm taking lots of photos for an article.  I should post before/after bullet photos here sometime late today.

Both of my non-destroyed Hornady 175 gr RN bullets look very similar to the 7mm Barnes TTSX bullets in your upper photos.  One lost 5 grs weight and the other one lost 9 grs, as I noted in my previous post.

As I believe in the hole all the way through philosophy, I don't think 9" penetration even in wet newsprint fits my mindset.  For example, I shot a big doe this year with a 7mm 154 gr Hornady SP at an impact velocity of ~2200 fps.  She was facing toward me at a slight offset angle to her right.  My crosshairs were on the center of her chest as I squeezed the trigger.  However, she bolted to her right and instead of the bullet hitting the center of her chest it hit behind her left front leg.  It exited just forward of her right hind leg.  It completely penetrated her abdominal cavity, traversing at an angle perhaps 24" of deer.  It might have clipped her left lung on its way through her, but I don't think so. 

I found her about 150 yards away. If not for a two-hole blood trail, I wouldn't have found her.  I hunt woods and thickets.  She crossed a creek twice, went in and out of a thicket, and died in another thicket.  I tied orange surveyor's tape on the limbs above her and left to get help to drag her out of the woods.  When I returned with my brother, we had difficulty finding the bright tape.  Like I said, I hunt in thickets.  That's where the deer are.

Offline shot1

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 03:09:50 AM »
That goes to show you that it is all about bullet placement. If you miss the heart, lungs or CNS a deer is going to go a long ways. On the above mentioned deer you probably punched her liver that is the reason that she only went 150 yards.

Have you given the Berger HUNTING VLD bullets a thought. They seem to expand well at lower velocities and they will expand. They make a 140, 168 and 180 gr in 7mm. The only VLD that I have used on deer was on one deer. It was the .308 155 gr shot from my 30X47 HBR caliber rifle at a muzzle velocity of 2650 fps. Impact was at 111 yards broad side through both shoulders with an exit the size of a base ball. Deer did run about 50 yards and there was no blood trail because there has to be something working to pump blood out. It's chest cavity was liquid.

Offline sweetwyominghome

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 04:37:15 AM »
To get expansion and an exit under the parameters you are working under, I can only think of a couple bullets that would suit your needs: the Nosler 140 grain Ballistic Tip and the Combined Technology 140 grain Ballistic Silvertip. Both should exit any deer given your modest starting velocity. And yet you'll get some tissue destruction.

One other option would be to use a hard-cast projectile with a wide, flat meplat. You'll definitely get 2 holes, but be prepared for a bit of tracking if you don't break bone and have secondary fragments to augment the bullet's wound channel.

Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 04:52:54 AM »
Re: shot1: no all copper bullets for me.  I'm getting old enough to see all change as bad....

Re: sweetwyominghome: First, your photos are outstanding! Second,  I've thought about getting some Nosler 120 gr BTs but on your recommendation I'll go with 140 gr BTs if I buy more bullets.  I wanted to try and stick with bullets I have on hand. 

I'm also considering getting Match Grade Machine to build me a 10" bull 7mm TCU barrel with a 1 in 12" twist for cast bullets.  The 12 twist is to lower the RPMs at 1900 fps or so with the RCBS 145 gr cast bullet.  A 1 in 9" twist @ 1900 fps = 152,000 rpms.  A 1 in 12" twist @ 1900 rpms = 114,000 rpms.  At circa 115,000 rpms my wheelweight alloy starts coming apart.

Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 06:23:06 AM »
Just fired more rounds through wet newspapers.  The 120 gr Sierra Pro Hunter @ ~1850 fps penetrated ~12" w/zero expansion.  The bullet could be loaded again and shot again.

I fired 2, 154 gr Hornady SP bullets @ ~ 1750 fps.  Both penetrated ~ 18".  One turned sideways and veered off course and exited the side of the barrel ~18" and disappeared.  The other one also veered off course but stayed straight and stopped at ~18 1/2" mark.  It had zero expansion and, like the 120 gr above, could be loaded again and shot again.

This test was highly educational for me and I hope for you guys.  First, from now on I'll use the 175 gr Hornady RN or, preferred, the 175 gr Nosler Partition in my 7mm TCU for deer hunting.  Second, the same two bullets will now be used for deer hunting in my old 93 Mauser 7x57 as I keep fps somewhat low in that rifle due to its age and design. 

Problem is, I have on hand ~3,000 154 gr Hornadys and ~450 120 gr Sierra Pro Hunters....  Oh, well, they'll work on turtles and beer cans. 

Offline sweetwyominghome

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 06:34:05 AM »
Thanks. I appreciate it. And thank you for sharing your experiences with the board. There's no substitute for real-world knowledge like that.

You know, as to your stash of bullets, I bet you could probably trade those on the classifieds if you'd want as both are pretty popular weights/styles.

Yes, that 120 grain Nosler BT would drop deer well for you, but I did not mention it as the 140 is more likely to exit for you. On most broadside presentations, that 120 BT will exit a deer but is not always 100 percent in that regard (though, in reality, nothing really is LOL!) Still, it is a fairly stout bullet and actually uses the jacket of the 140 grain BT with the top trimmed, so the jacket is substantial.

The medium-sized sow below was taken withh the 120 grain BT. It broke both shoulders, exited and dropped the hog on the spot. The impact velocity should have been a bit over 2200 fps.


Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 06:41:38 AM »
Home, one thing I found interesting is how the 154 gr Hornady bullets veered off course.  They both veered off the straight ~6" in ~18".  The twist maybe?

I probably could trade those bullets, but IME every single time I've sold or traded something shooting/reloading related I've regretted it.

Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2011, 11:47:22 AM »
 sweetwyominghome, I picked up a lb of AA-2015 and a box of Nosler 140 gr BTs today.  If the weather cooperates, I'll do some Chrony and wet newspaper work tomorrow.  I'm thinking I can get maybe 1700 fps with 2015 & 175 gr vs 1600 fps with Varget.


Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 01:49:56 AM »
Well, the AA2015 gave me pressure signs before I reached the velocities I get with Varget.  However, the 140 gr Nosler BT is a winner.  My dealer happened to have a box of them when I picked up the AA2015 he ordered for me.  They're ~ 1/2 the price of the Partitions, i.e., 41¢ in the door vs 71¢ in the door.

At 1644 fps the 140 gr BT penetrated 10 1/2" in the wet newsprint and left a neat 1" to 1 1/2" cavity.  Mild load signs.  I increased the Varget by .1cc for an estimated 1725 fps, but the round nicked my Chrony; thus the estimated 1725 fps.  Still mild load signs.  The next round, a 22 LR check shot, killed my Chrony.  It's on its way home for a decent burial and a replacement.

The only bad thing about the 1644 fps, 140 BT w/10 1/2" penetration was that the core and jacket separated.  I found the much-mangled jacket at the 10 1/2" point, but I couldn't find the core.  We'll blame that on tough newsprint.   

I believe the 140 gr Nosler BT @ 1725 or a little more fps will be my 10" 7mm TCU deer round next season.  Thanks sweetwyominghome!

Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 09:46:31 AM »
Finally got around to photographing the bullets.  Here's the 175 gr Hornady RN w/added 1/8"x1/8" HP on the Left and the unaltered same bullet on the Right. 

L = weight = 164 grs; Penetration = 9 1/4"
R = weight = 170 grs; Penetration = 19"

For certain, at least IMHO, the Left, hollowpointed bullet is fine for deer.  So probably is the right, unaltered bullet.


Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 05:33:22 AM »
sweetwyominghome, you'll find this interesting.  I took my Harbor Freight cut-off tool and whacked off the noses of some of the non-expanding Hornady 154 SP bullets.  The result was a 311041-like 62% meplat on a 145.5 gr jacketed bullet.  The photo shows the wet newsprint results.  Muzzle velocity = 1725 fps estimated; Penetration = 12"; expansion = 2.7 X bullet diameter; retained weight = 97%.


Offline Antietamgw

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 05:30:01 PM »
Thanks for posting your findings, especially the newsprint tests. I have a carbine barrel in 7TCU and a few 7mm molds but haven't had the time to do much with it. If I find a reliable cast load and alloy I'll likely use it on a deer or two this fall. I won't need to spend much effort on a jacketed load as you will have it all done  :)  I look forward to reading the article. BTW, your 7TCU articles helped me decide I wanted it in a carbine.
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Offline streak

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 06:52:17 PM »
Junior,
Great post!
Will the article that you mentioned be available on " The Frugal Outdoorsman" website once it is completed?
I also have 7TCU in the contender 10" configuration, so appreciate the information from your test!

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Offline Curtis

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2011, 03:08:36 AM »
Quote
I took my Harbor Freight cut-off tool and whacked off the noses of some of the non-expanding Hornady 154 SP bullets.

Junior, I like your style.  I once made "low penetration" rounds out of some 22 shorts by filing the nose off and making a 17 gr wadcutter.  I made a die to hold the rounds while I filed them so they were all consistent and shot to the same point of aim.

These were for use inside my attic for squirrel iradication.  They shot great out of my Remington 582 bolt gun, although they were too stubby to feed.  None of the low velocity factory rounds that I tried shot well, and some of them still penetrated a test 2x4 more than I was comfortable with.  I'm a DIY kinda guy anyhow.

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Offline Junior1942

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Re: 7mm TCU expansion test
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2011, 03:48:48 AM »
Junior,
Great post!
Will the article that you mentioned be available on " The Frugal Outdoorsman" website once it is completed?
I also have 7TCU in the contender 10" configuration, so appreciate the information from your test!
Yep, I uploaded an update about the cut-off results just yesterday.  Truthfully, I couldn't believe what that FP bullet at only 1765 fps did to the wet newsprint.  I called it a "gray goo geyser" because that's what happened.  As I said in the article, I now know why the 30-30 Winchester works so well on deer--it's the FP bullet.  PM me your snailmail address and I'll send you a few 154 gr SP-now-145.5 gr FPs to test in your 10" 7mm TCU barrel.

I'm seriously considering getting MGM to build me a 1-12" twist 10" 7mm TCU barrel for cast bullets.  I'm thinking I could build a bullet-holding-jig for my 1" belt sander and put a better FP on both the RCBS 145 and 168 gr cast bullets.