Author Topic: Thinkin about a Red Dot, or different Scope for My M4 (Read 2321 times)

Dee · « **on:** March 07, 2011, 03:21:37 PM »

I've got a Leupold 2X7 on it now and it looks around the front site. Will a red dot do the same? And will it be that much faster. The 2 power settin is pretty fast. mcwoodduck sent me a cheaper red dot and the accuracy on a 22 is remarkable. Will it be the same on my AR.
I have fired thousands of rounds, and trained dozens of officers on the range, and carried the ARs for decades but, this red dot system didn't even exist before I retired. What about it guys. I lookin to spend about $200.00 or so on one.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2011, 12:30:31 AM »

Dee if the sight bothers you why not put a differnt gas block on it that allows for a flip up sight. Ive got aimpoints on a couple ars that have fixed front sights and yes you can see them. Neat thing with them though is if both your fixed sights and your dot are sighted in the same the dot will appear right on top of the post and to me it almost helps with fast shooting. Cheap and good in redots is kind of a problem. About the only dot sight ive found that i would actually trust in that price range is the vortex strikefire. They dont have the battery life an aimpoint has and the auto shut off wont allow a guy to leave one turned on all the time for a home defense gun but for a 1/3 the price of an aimpoint there a hell of a bargin. Im kind of in the same delema right now. My ar10 has a 2x7 leupold on it and id like something faster but dont want to give up my long range capabilitys. Id love to buy another acog for it but just cant afford it anymore. An aimpoint with a magnifier is just as expensive and if im going to spend that much its going to be an acog.

Dee · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2011, 01:00:07 AM »

I checked one out yesterday Lloyd, and the scope was a small x instead of a dot. As you say the small x sat right on top of the front sight, and was not a problem. I've shot the 2x so long, I just can't make up my mind if I would be gaining that much more speed. I've gottin fairly fast with it. I suppose your putting your aimpoints on risers?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:10:09 AM »

yup dee i use either a rizer or a tall aimpoint mount. Ive got one ar with a low aimpoint mount and hate it. I jsut ordered a riser to get it up a bit. Dee ive shot low power scopes quite a bit too but i think youll find a reddot is hands down faster. Especially if you learn to keep both eyes open which was hard for this old timer with bad habbits. What makes them faster more then the fact they have no magnification is that you dont have to have your eyes exactly centered behind the tube like you do to get a full field of view. It doesnt matter if the dot is at the bottom of the sight or the far side if the dots on the target so is your bullet. This is even more important when your firing in out of position.

Quote from: Dee on March 09, 2011, 01:00:07 AM

I checked one out yesterday Lloyd, and the scope was a small x instead of a dot. As you say the small x sat right on top of the front sight, and was not a problem. I've shot the 2x so long, I just can't make up my mind if I would be gaining that much more speed. I've gottin fairly fast with it. I suppose your putting your aimpoints on risers?

simplicity · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2011, 12:09:52 PM »

Well for my M4 I can't see spending $400 or so on a red dot and I went with the vortex strike fire it goes for $150. I honestly couldn't be happier It has never lost it's zero and I've had to take it off and put it back on numorous times due to the 3 gun competitions I run whether they're open sights or optics courses. It has both green and red dots plus it comes with a 2x screw in magnifyer. I do hear you on the not wanting to give up on the long range I keep a 2-7x redfeild on my ar10 and it has served very well.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2011, 11:08:58 PM »

ive got a strikefire myself and there a heck of a good unit for the money but have a couple downfalls that keep them from being put on a gun i count on to defend my family. Battery life isnt good enough to leave them on all the time. My aimpoints are left on constantly as in the heat of actually needing the gun i dont want to have to think to turn one on or fumble with a switch. With my aimpoints i just change batterys weather they need it or not on jan 1 when i do the smoke detectors. The other thing with the strike fire that not only prevents it from being left on but is its major weakness in my opinion is the auto shut off feature. I dont want a sight thats going to turn itself off at the most inoportune moment. I could even live with one on a self defense gun if i had to change batterys every couple months but just cant live with the auto shut off. I made the suggestion to them to put the auto shut off on a switch so it could be disabled and they said they were going to think it over. Dont know if they really are or were just blowing smoke up my but. Bottom line is there a good rugged sight and if they just do that id probably never buy another aimpoint because of the cost but until then ill stick with the aimpoints on serious guns and buy strikefires for plinkers.

simplicity · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2011, 12:28:20 AM »

As far as battery life is concerned your aim poitn has a 50,000 hr battery life and the vortex has a 30,000 hr battery life. I've never had to change the battery in mine. The auto shut off that woudn't bother me in a defense just run the drill of hitting the switch when you grab the gun. My only concern with the strike fire as far as rough use would be the membrane buttons on the side. Besides if I have to really deefend my home I'm not grabbing my m4 I'm going for my fnslp with nothing more then a 8 rnd mesa side saddle and a mounted light. I've found running the slp with a red dot in 3 guns is accually a hindirance then a helper. If you do go with a red dot sight make sure it's bigger then 30mm objective anything smaller it's hard to pick up multible targets

Bigeasy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2011, 03:00:28 AM »

Dee

I have an UltraDot mounted on a Redhawk with thousands of heavy loads thru it, and it has held up fine. Manual on / off, and manual dot intensity. Does not have the battery life of an Aimpoint, but costs a lot less, and is durable.

On one of my M4's, I mounted a 2x7 scope, using a rear Burris ring with a weaver type mount on its top ring, then mounted a Burris FastFire holographic dot site to that. It is primarily as a back up sight to the scope, but is accurate at reasonable ranges, and fast to use. One drawback to it is having to slightly raise your cheek weld on the stock because of its high mounting location. Still, it is fast at close range.

If you prefer a tube type sight, you could probably mount a small one the same way. I don't like the idea of mounting a red dot type sight as the only, or primary sight on a rifle that has the capability and precision to make 300 / 400 yard hits, unless it is a dedicated close quarters combat weapon..

Larry

jmayton · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2011, 12:34:30 PM »

You know I run the Millett DMS 1-4x and it's the best of both worlds. It's essentially a red dot at 1x, though not as good as a holographic for speed, and it'll go up to 4x for the longer shots. I'll see the front sight until I get to 2x and then it disappears. The downside is it has some halo at 1x and it's big and heavy.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2011, 06:05:34 AM »

I am thinking leo 2-7 with a seperate sight on a 45 degree mount off the right side . I have seen pictures of such but have not had a hand on such a set up . Has anyone tried such yet ? If so how did it work ?

jmayton · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2011, 06:32:44 AM »

A friend of mine has that setup on his. it's nice, but you have to roll your cheek over the stock or cant the rifle. I kinda like the idea of having it above the scope. It's not a big deal to raise your head because at the ranges you would be using the holographic a good cheek weld is not really required.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:44:16 AM »

I have a rifle with the gas block with rail so I was thinking maybe I could get Iron sights far enough apart to be useful on the 45 degree blocks. If not then the set up you have would be the way to go. I have seen a picture with all three on a gun along with light etc. But I'm getting to old to tote that much weight. To be honest if my eyesight was better it would only be iron sights .

jmayton · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:25:42 PM »

JP makes a sight that is designed to mount at 45 degrees. It's like an open reflex style. . . sort of a short A2 style sight rail. It would be light and simple. But again it requires the rifle to be canted when used.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2011, 02:28:51 AM »

Thanks I will check it out. The gun I saw the picture of had a top rail that was on both the upper and handguard , long ! It looked like it would give a good sight picture . My concern is not enough distance between rear and front sights. Your idea might be best.

jmayton · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2011, 04:44:03 AM »

I'll have to look again, but I think the JP is intended for point blank out to about 40yds. I'm sure with practice you could engage something a bit further than that, but then I'd want to be using standard sights or an optic.

As far as zero magnification optics go, I like holographics over red dots (though Aimpoints are quite nice). The best I've shot is the EOTech. Great field of view, perfect for fast engagement, no distortion. I know the military use ACOGs a lot, but also Aimpoint and EOTech. I just like the big glass and open field of view with the EOTech.

And, if I didn't run what I do now, I'd be running an EOTech for competition and a 2-7 or 3-9 ballistic reticle scope with a Burris Fastfire sitting on top.

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2011, 07:44:07 AM »

Decisions, decisions. $:-\$ Keep the suggestions comin guys, this is interestin, I am close to makin the step.

drdougrx · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2011, 08:09:15 AM »

I've mounted a QR rail on top of my flattop CAR-15 with a 2x7. Just behind the rail is a flip up peep with a tritium insert as well as a tritium front post. I like it. I'm intrigued with JMAYTON's Millett DMS 1-4x. I have 30mm red dot (a BSA) that I've had on and off the rifle but can't seem to get comfortable with it. I also can't justify the cost of an EOTECh....though I've been wrong before......

JWP58 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2011, 11:12:59 AM »

Aimpoint or Eotech. I'd suggest an Aimpoint Micro, i picked up an R1 on sale and it is fantastic. The mount and sight only weigh 6oz's.

If its going to see serious use, dont buy a piece of JUNK.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2011, 11:52:05 PM »

There is a neat little mount that may fit some people alright. http://www.vendio.com/stores/TiraMart/item?lid=9433316&source=Vendio:Google%20Product%20Search The scope is mounted at 12 o'clock. Then a dot is mounted at 1 o'clock. The rifle is held normal for the scope. And canted slightly for up close. With training this could be a doable setup. I ran a coarse with one and the transition was quite easy for indoor room clearing. I do have one a friend gave me, but never mounted it. I just use a dot for defense rig and scope for hunting rig.

Dee · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2011, 01:45:49 PM »

Well I decided to go conservative at first. Today I bought a Millett red dot for the Browning Buckmark 22 pistol, and a BSA Tactical red dot with a laser for the M4. We shall see. It ain't Cadillac, but I don't intend to make any major assaults at my age either.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2011, 06:43:12 PM »

Let us know how they work out. I'll bet you find yourself grouping better with that Buckmark, especially in poor light, or with less then optimal targets.

Larry

Dee · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2011, 02:51:04 AM »

Bigeasy, I was weapons instructor for 18 years, and ran and trained a SWAT unit, in my younger days. At the present I can make out the front sight on a pistol enough to nail ya in a fight.
The red dot to me is a wonder. Old age is causing me to use crutches to shoot where I used to shoot on paper.
The Buckmark will be used for varmits around the house, and squirrel huntin, and the AR for running coyotes and hogs. My fightin days are pretty much past tense unless pushed or cornered. The youngsters can have that job now.
As far as shootin groups, once both are zeroed, they will see very little paper punchin. mcwoodduck sent me his old Tasco red dot to try, and I was amazed.

Dee · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2011, 11:20:58 AM »

Took both out and zeroed them. The M4 at 50yds, so that should put me back to zero at 200yds. The Buckmark is now a one-holer. Plenty of brightness, and a friend of mine and I are planning to hunt hogs out of his small open cockpit plane this winter.