2F vs 3F

[Encore28]

I have been using 2F in my Flintlocks for 25 years BUT recently have been wondering about switching to 3F. I use Goex exclusively-----any input - or + is appreciated.
Thanks

Encore28

[Swampman]

I won't use anything but 3f even in my .72 caliber Long Land Pattern musket.

[Semisane]

These smokepoles are funny things and you never know what will happen.  So it's worth a can of 3F just to see.  I use 3F GOEX in most of my guns.  But I have a .54 Green Mountain barreled Renegade that does not like 3F at all, but shoots like this with 2F.

[Forestclimber]

I have a can of 7F for priming.   3F in the barrel, and 7F in the lock is noticeably faster than the 2F/4F combination.

[Ladobe]

As suggested, each firrearm will have its preference and it will take trial and error to find out which.   I always start out with 3F for 32-45 cal's, and 2F from 50 cal up.   Do have a MR 45 that shoots both equally well, but I still shoot 3F in it anyway.

[Anduril]

forestclimber,
that 7F must be pretty fffffffine stufffffff.
..

[coyotejoe]

Fuse powder I believe.

[nw_hunter]

I have been using 2F in my Flintlocks for 25 years BUT recently have been wondering about switching to 3F. I use Goex exclusively-----any input - or + is appreciated.
Thanks

Encore28

I pretty much switched to 3f exclusively. All my guns seem to like it after working up a load.
Another plus is more bang for the buck! Generally about 10% less for the same result. Burns faster and cleaner (softer fouling).


 

[Glanceblamm]

Generally about 10% less for the same result. Burns faster and cleaner (softer fouling).

This would be my thoughts also. Nothing at all wrong with the ff as I took many deer with it and in some mighty raw weather.
My fff was usually reserved for cap n ball revolvers along with a single shot.

[quickdtoo]

The only problem I ever had with 3f in a flinter was with large touch holes, when ramming a ball down it would blow a lot of powder out, 2f didn't. By using a frizzen cover on a closed frizzen, it was self priming tho!  3F was my preference in all my rifles, pistols and shotguns, I could get a few more loads out of each pound of powder since I could use a little less 3f than 2f for each load.

Tim

[AtlLaw]

Hmmmm, never tried 3F in rifles...  Maybe it's about time I did!   

[Encore28]

Thanks for all the replies----------------I will try my 2F first and see how it works out and then maybe buy a can of 3F.
Thanks again to everyone

Encore28

[DennyRoark]

I've always said that 2F goes boom, 3F goes crack!  Just use a little less as pressures are higher for equivilent volume.

[Glanceblamm]

I've always said that 2F goes boom, 3F goes crack!  Just use a little less as pressures are higher for equivilent volume.

And a good reason to stay 10% less on the Max charge rating as listed by the firearms manufacture when using the fff.

[keith44]

Ok my only flinter is a .32 cal and I feed it only 3F.  My two other rifles, both .54 caliber percussion models (one an old (as in 18 yrs old) Traditions Hawken, the other a Pedersoli SxS Kodiak in .54x.54)  The Hawken with round ball loads likes 85 grs of 3f or 95 gr of 2f.  The SxS hates 3f.  it leaves very hard fouling and will not regulate. 2f on the other hand with medium and heavy conicals shoots well, and does not foul the barrel as badly.

[Ron T.]

Two years ago when I got into muzzle loading rifles, I was at Friendship and didn't know which powder to buy, so I bought a pound of FFFFg (Goex) for priming my .50 caliber flintlock Pennsyvania Long Rifle plus a pound of FFg Goex because I had heard that for .50 caliber and up, one should use FFg powder.

However, a good friend and shooting buddy of mine who initially got me into traditional muzzling loading rifles recommended using FFFg, so I bought 3 pounds of it (Goex) as well.

To make a long story shorter, I've never opened the Goex can of FFg because the .50 caliber flintlock plus the two .50 calber Hawken rifles I now also own all shoot very accurately with FFFg.  Another shooting buddy recommended Swiss black powder over Goex, so I now have a  half a can of FFFg Goex left plus 3 pounds of FFFg Swiss plus most of a pound of FFFFg Goex and that unopened one pound can of FFg Goex.

And so... it appears I've got enough powder to last through this summer's shooting... and possibly longer.   

As to whether the Swiss black powder (at $22 a pound) is better than the Goex (American-made at $14 a pound), I'm not sure... but it seems (so far) that my three .50 caliber black powder rifles (the Pennsylvania flintlock or the two Hawken percussion cap rifles) all "like" FFFg just fine and all 3 are very accurate with target loads of FFFg Swiss.

As others have pointed out, the FFFg black powder yields high velocities with less powder than the FFg probably would, but I don't know if that claim is true or not since I've never attempted to use the Goex FFg powder... but I plan to find out this year when the weather becomes more "friendly".   


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

[Swampman]

Just keep in mind that you don't need to reduce the charge for safety's sake.  I't almost impossible to damage a modern quality firearm with blackpowder.  Believe me I've tried.

[keith44]

A properly seated projectile, and your chosen quantity of black is easily contained, and controlled by todays weapons, but leave an air space between the powder and bullet and you will wreck a gun.

[DennyRoark]

Just keep in mind that you don't need to reduce the charge for safety's sake.  I't almost impossible to damage a modern quality firearm with blackpowder.  Believe me I've tried.

Due to the higher pressures generated with equivilent volume of 3F, you may need to reduce the powder to maintain accuracy, tho.  Higher pressures = higher velocity.

[keith44]

not necessarily DennyRoark.  I recently was reading a few published articles where pressure testing and velocity was recorded.  They were testing various powder brands and granulations, some of the highest pressure black powder loads actually produced lower velocities.  The reason, three different authors concluded, was the powder in question produced too much fouling and did not convert as much of the solids to gas (incomplete burn) and therefore as charges increased more was just pushed out the barrel (added weight to the projectile) which raised pressures but lowered the velocity.  The pressure increase in the one most alarming load was 2,300 psi the velocity loss was 300 fps.

Nothing dangerous, with the guns involved, but eye opening. 

[DennyRoark]

That's interesting, Keith44.  Sounds plausible. 

[crow_feather]

I no longer have my old Lyman reloading manual, but I don't recall seeing lower velocities for the same amount of 3f compared to 2f. 

One story about the mountain men is that they would fire their new rifles over snow loading more and more powder until they saw black specks on the snow. (unburned powder)  They would then back off some and have their load.

I wonder if them old mountain climbers had a 2f or 3f to choose from.

[flintlock]

The problem with those old stories is that they are just that...Stories...

Over half of black powder is not burned, it's left over as residue, some in the barrel and some blown out of the barrel...They wouldn't be able to distinguish what powder was burned and what wasn't...

"Back in the day" a rifle would come with it's own mold and powder measure, furnished by the gunsmith...

Powder back then came in 2 granulations, cannon powder and gun powder, which was roughly 2f...The smaller granulations came later...

As far as using FF or FFF...I use FFF in both my .40 and my .54, it's also used as prime...

[coyotejoe]

Agreed, You'll find "black specks" blown out even with very light charges but velocity of the ball continues to climb even with loads no sensible person would choose to shoot and WAY beyond the manufacturer's maximum recommended load. Some of the old time advise is still sound but most of the "tales" are easily debunked with a chronograph. As to 2f vs 3f, it's up to the individual rifle and shooter, some like one and some prefer the other.