Author Topic: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???  (Read 1540 times)

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Offline tendoy

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Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« on: April 08, 2011, 08:02:31 PM »
I bought a TC Hawken some years back from a friend I worked with.  The rifle has a brown laminated stock and I am pretty sure I remember my friend telling me that he bought the rifle new with the stock already on it.  I seem to remember him saying that his brother bought one like it at the same time.  All of the furniture fits really well and the major brass pieces have an engraved serial number which matches a serial number tag glued to the stock under the trigger guard.  The friend moved and I'm trying to track him down to ask him if I remember right. 

I called TC today to ask about the stock and the woman I talked to said she had worked there since 1977 and had never seen a Hawken with a laminated stock.  There is one gunsmith who will be back Monday who has worked there longer than her and she said she would ask him if he remembered such a thing.  Does anyone else out there have a TC Hawken with a factory laminated stock?  Since I took the rifle apart and found the matching serial numbers on the brass parts and the stock, I've been interested in trying to find out where the stock came from.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 01:14:42 AM »
I've seen a couple of them at gun shows.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 10:56:03 AM »
TC's first Hawken came out summer of 1970, so if that gal remembers right on no laminate Hawkens since 1977, it would have had to be within that first 6-7 year period to be "factory".

A laminate stock model doesn't show up in any of my collection of old TC catalog's, and I don't remember any of them myself despite getting my first TC Hawken soon after they came out and owning a few more pretty much ever since.   Nor did TC engrave serial numbers on their furniture that I've ever seen, so that sort of lends to rifles reworked by somebody maybe.    Doesn't mean there might not have been a small, limited factory run, just that I never saw or heard of any.   TC is often credited for reviving so called tradtional muzzleloading to a larger scale with their Hawken model, so it would surprise me if such a nontraditional stock was made by them especially in the early years that their Hawkens were produced.     

Regardless, a laminated stock on a traditional TC Hawken is just wrong!   I'd rather have a TC Hawken Cougar (c. 1985) if I wanted something different myself.

Pecatonica River, Chambers, Tiger Hunt and I'd bet many others have offered precut stocks for the TC Hawken.    As far as I know those three not with laminates though - their stocks were more along the lines of higher grade woods. 

FWIW

Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Swampman

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 04:42:35 PM »
The laminated T/C Hawkens I saw were very attractive and factory in the box.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 09:50:40 AM »
That doesn't mean they were not reworked rifles Mark.   I'd like to know if TC did or didn't offer them as a factory run, and if not who did rework them.   Can you cite proof for either and when?   
Thanks.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 11:47:47 AM »
Sounds like something Talo may have done.

Tim

http://www.taloinc.com/#
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Offline tendoy

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 08:46:55 AM »
I got this mail from Dianne, the customer service rep I talked to last week:

Good afternoon,
I spoke to you on Friday about your Hawken with the laminated stock.  We did make about 8 of them in the 80’s.  The stocks were so expensive that they decided not to do the laminated stocks.  That is all that the gunsmith knew..I hope this helps somewhat.  Have a nice day.
 
Dianne N.
Customer Service Representative
P: 1-866-730-1614
Ext: 5794

So...  The mystery is solved.  I can understand someone thinking that a laminated stock on a black powder rifle is sacrilege, but it's actually very nice looking.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 09:35:16 AM »
I thought it looked nice myself.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 11:12:40 AM »
Thanks for the update tendoy, and for bringing the topic up in the first place.   

I still had doubts though just from considering that TC never put serial numbers on the furniture of any of their other traditional models, or any of the parts of their Contenders, Encores, etc.   So I called and had a nice long conversation with Dianna about this and several other current things at TC.   Their smith only saw two of the laminated stocked Hawkens but guessed up to eight were made.   Further that they were simply an experimental project, and if they do have the barrels serial number on any furniture (and not just casting numbers) it was because they attempted to keep all parts associated with each of them together through the various production stages because they were an experimental prototype project.    TC obviously decided not to market them, but also obviously at least some of them did make it to outside hands.   So I can now accept that those seen were examples of these prototypes made by TC.   So they will be added to my TC data base I have been building for many years.   Those that have seen them were lucky to do so.   Regardless, laminated stocks don't belong on their Hawkens IMO.

As a serious customer of TC (from soon after they first opened their doors) and a long time friend of some of their upper management (all of which are no longer at TC), I was still able to get several other specific questions answered that have been long standing as well.   So I'll file them away in my large TC data base for future reference if and when they come up.

FWIW though, TC's move is progressing well and their customer service department is dead serious about not letting their customers feel any effects of the move or other possible matters at all.   So like they always have been they are completely dedicated to serving their customers.   Part of what has always made them the best IMO.

L.

Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline cipher

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »


Ladobe and all,

This turned out to be an interesting quest.  (I made the original post as tendoy when I couldn't log on under my original name, cipher.  I've got that straightened out now.)  It could be that the smiths had more trouble fitting the brass parts to the laminated wood and wanted to make sure the pieces didn't get separated from the stock they were matched to.  Just conjecture on my part. 

I'm not real familiar with these TC Hawkens - in fact I probably haven't fired this one for 10 years, or so - the black powder thing didn't quite take with me.  I am curious what you know about the use of serial numbers by TC.  The barrel, of course, is easily changed out and I'm not sure how much fitting goes into those - they may be completely interchangable and that could be why the numbers on the stock don't match the barrel number.  Perhaps the man who worked on the stock didn't know which barrel would end up on this rifle.  The "serial number" on the stock though, if you can call it a serial number, is a red tag under clear glue in the rear attachment for the trigger guard casting.  The numbers on the brass parts look like they were made by hand with an electric engraving tool and include the last 4 digits of the number on the stock tag and the initials "ul" (?).  Do these match the name of someone you might know who may have worked there in the 80s?

I was finally able to get in touch with the fellow I bought the gun from.  This particular rifle was purchased at a gunshop in Pocatello, Idaho.  It turns out they weren't able to locate another rifle like this one for his brother, so as far as I know, it's the only one in Pocatello.  If you are interested in pictures of the various parts, I will be glad to send them on.

Paul

 

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Anyone Heard of a TC Hawken Factory Laminated Stock???
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2011, 02:27:11 PM »
Hey Paul,

Agree 100% - anything that leads to more provable data about these rifles is a plus for future reference for all of us.

I doubt the TC smiths had any trouble with the laminated wood that was any different than with their other wood stocks as they would have been machine cut just like the others to use their stock furniture parts.   The procedures TC's in house stockmakers used when they still made their stocks (up until the fire), was to do final stock dimensions prior to finish with the furniture installed (more or less).   That's not conjecture on my part, but from Tim P. at TC years ago.   No doubt they did some "fitting" along the process, especially if they had to make up for casting flaws, etc.   But they must have been a pretty consistent stock crew, because parts have always been pretty much interchangeable on their rifles from a like rifle from a like era.   

Serialization of the pre fire TC muzzies will always remain speculation because all of TC's records on them was destroyed in the fire.   For many years I have worked on my data base in trying to reassemble an approximate year of manufacture list, model run years, etc.  But the data is dependant on the source.   IOW the modelserialization data I have from sources that still have their original sales receipt of new in the box rifles is all that approximates about when made.   Mainly because there is no way of knowing how long any NIB rifle sat in stock at TC or a dealer before it was actually sold.   From only this a pattern is developing though that certain serial number ranges do fall into a similar time period, but its far from exact and it will never be even close to complete in my lifetime.   Memory is a fine thing when it comes to life's pleasures maybe, but most often its not worth squat when it comes to any data on the TC's.    Some "from memory" when bought new serial numbers do fall close to those backed by receipts, but many are also so far off in the wrong direction that they are ridiculous.    An example would be the gent who insisted over and over that he bought his TC Hawken new in 1965 even after being told that TC didn't open its doors until 1967 or offer their first Hawken until Aug 1970.    So the best even my hard won data for serialization on the muzzies can do is a best guess approximately when one was made based on just its serial number.

Matching serialization on stocks themselves is something TC did do, but not always, not always in the same place and not on all models.   A "K" was added (either before or after S# or to the breech plug) to designate the kit rifles.   When push comes to shove there really is no 100% guaranty that even a rifle bought new in the box, let alone one bought used has all the original parts it started life with.    And about the only clue on the standard Hawkens would be the stock and the lock, which did change with improvements during their run. 

I have no idea what the "ul" is for - maybe the smith's initials that was building it, and I didn't know them if so.   Hand engraved numbers on these laminate stock rifles would not surprise me at all as they were very few and only meant to be prototypes.

No need for the pictures since they probably just used stock parts, and your description says enough to speculate from.

And that's the bottom line... most of what we assume about the prefire traditional arms especially is just speculation with only specific points that have been confirmed to be fact by TC or other documented sources.   Even so it's been fun trying to figure it out over the years, acquiring the old catalogs and sales flyer's, and I'll keep adding information to my data base that can be accepted as fact.

L.

Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus