Author Topic: How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?  (Read 1353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« on: January 28, 2004, 11:02:14 AM »
Without naming any certain cartridge, what would you consider to be the best caliber, bullet and energy for a rifle to be used for African Lions?  Something like a .375, 300 gr. soft point or solid with 4,503 fpe., .416, 400 gr. round nose soft point or solid with 4,905 fpe., or .458, 400 gr. round nose soft point or solid with 5,132 fpe..  What would consider to be the minimum AND what would you consider to be ideal for lions?  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Blackhawk44

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 981
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2004, 01:43:22 PM »
Most likely something .375 and anything over with a heavier Fail Safe, Bear Claw or X Bullet.  That way your set for muscle or bone.  Tissue damage and penetration both.  They are killed almost every day with 7.62's and 303's, but if its my hide on the line, they can't be stopped too quick or be killed too dead.  Can't stand the thought of someone else making money off the story of my sudden demise.

Offline BS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 147
    • http://webpages.charter.net/fam-strick/web/index.htm
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2004, 03:29:09 PM »
I would think , 4000 ft. lbs. of energy to start.......and remember "BIG BULLETS MAKE BIG HOLES"    big holes start at 40 cal...................BIGGER is BETTER!
Get Close, and Whack'em Hard!

Offline BS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 147
    • http://webpages.charter.net/fam-strick/web/index.htm
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2004, 03:40:44 PM »
Blackhawk44. I would have to say NAY on the X bullets and other copper HPs. Not enough expansion. I would much prefer a huge wound channel of a 400 grn. RN soft point in 416 or 458.

Of course nothing wrong with using a 50 or 60 cal. and big RNs.
Get Close, and Whack'em Hard!

Offline Blackhawk44

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 981
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2004, 04:12:04 PM »
Respectfully, while fpe is a good topic of discussion, the proper penetration, the rapid organ and skeletal destruction and subsequent stoppage of progress and/or vital function, followed by further penetration to exit to allow organ collapse would be the most desired result.  On what is still basically a soft tissue (body hit) target, our modern super bullets come closest to this goal (given sufficient momentum).  Any number of FMJ solids could easily exceed any specified "fpe" goal and still not accomplish the desired result, i.e., keeping that lion off you.  One of the premium type bullets, maybe even in a slightly smaller bore(I am not advocating small bores), could come closer to our goal despite a mathmatical disadvantage.  There are any number of accounts where the lion was shot through and through with any number of large caliber solids, which did kill the lion, but not before someone was thoroughly bitten and scratched beyond recognition.  Solids have the kinetic energy but not the mechanical ability to disrupt activity FAST enough on anything other than a brain or spine shot.  I'm just not that good of a shot when I'm shaking that badly.  I feel that its far better to patch the large hole in the trophy hide with a nice plaid rather than to have one of my pall bearers have to explain  "Yes, he got the lion, BUT...".  BOL

Offline Seeker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
375 Win for lion
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2004, 10:47:50 AM »
Of course we all know there is no secret energy level needed for the great African lion.It has alot more to do with the shooter and his ability to stay calm and get good shot placement with a high quality round designed for such a task.A friend of mine just came back from Africa and took a large male lion(over 400lbs) at 45yds with one shot from a 375Win in a Savage M99A.He was using a 260gr Nosler at around 2200fps,which would probably only give you around 2500fpe in energy.

Many a lion and tiger have been killed by 7MM Mauser,303 British ,275 Rigby,and 22 Hi -Power and many others not mentioned.I believe one is much better off with a caliber one is comfortable with,and can get great shot placement at will,rather than a thunder cannon with tons of energy,that one has not practiced with in every shooting situation.

Just my opinion.Thanks guys.

Offline Con

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 149
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2004, 05:17:29 PM »
The lions I've seen at the zoo aren't that big, so....
Factory Winchester 510gr softs from a 458 caliber, 2000+ fps. Big hole, and a soft bullet which shows lots of expansion and also stays in one piece. I'd steer away from the "premium" bullets.
Con

Offline KING

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2004, 05:23:14 AM »
:D   Trust me...................when you are within ten feet of an adult male at full charge(minor attitude problem) they look like a house with a lot of really pointy type thingies(all extended).  Does make life interesting to a certian extant.  I know.I have been there.  Background...I had worked on this cat prior to this little experiance,and for some reason he just plain did not like me at all.  I was the last thing he saw when he went out on the anesthetic and the first thing he saw when he came out of it.  The experiance was about a week after working on him(got a vasectomy).  Me and my partner had just,and I mean just got the heavy steel door closed in time for him to run into(cat was not where he was supposed to be,read..........in his cage.  He tore the crap out of that door and lost most of his claws and one canine in the process.  Kinda wondered what I was gunna do with my .44 mag at that time.  Always carried a 12 ga with buckshot and slugs after that little education.  Cat weighed in at a little over 500 at the time(looked like a thousand when he hit the door).  One of the PH that I used to know at that time recommended either a .416 Rigby or a .458 with a 400 grain flatnose at around 2200 fps.  Really close work was the 12ga,Winchester model 12 .  Stay safe..King
THE ONLY FEMALE THAT I TRUST IS A LABRADOR.......AND SHE DONT SNOORE,AND DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY COOKING...THE ONLY GODS THAT EXIST ARE THOSE THAT HAVE ONE IN THE CHAMBER,AND 19 IN THE MAG.......

Offline Larry Gibson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
Re: How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2004, 12:44:00 PM »
"How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?"

Well now Lawdog, I think a Snickers Bar ought to be enough.  All the energy ya need is enough to out run the PH!

Larry Gibson

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2004, 03:23:09 PM »
The reason I asked this question is because I wanted someone to put an energy number on it.  Like a minimum of 4,000 fpe. or whatever for the taking of a African Lion.  I didn't want a certain caliber or cartridge named just an energy limit.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline vhunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
READ THIS!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2004, 05:09:58 AM »
This is an article that I got from Accurate Reloading.com  Movies are great to!! Sometimes you don't have enough gun!!

Clearly, Henry Poolman had no qualms getting Pete Barrett to shoot his lion from their position. Pete Barrett calmly aimed his .458 rifle just as the lion started to move off. The big, smoke-colored cat slid behind an acacia thicket, reappeared on the other side, and paused momentarily to check on the hunters. As the lion paused, Barrett was ready for him. He fired, but just as that fat soft-nose 510-grain bullet left his rifle barrel, the big cat was already moving again. Barrett fired twice more as the lion bounded across the lava and over a low ridge. Pete Barrett thought he had missed the lion, but the two gun bearers – Gatia and the new man, David, both of whom had been standing behind the hunters on higher ground – insisted they had seen the lion collapse behind a lava ridge.

 

The hunters cautiously went behind the ridge, and fifteen yards behind it, they found the lion lying motionless, facing away from them. The old-timer’s credo, “It’s the dead ones that kill you!” is African hunting dogma. It seems that Henry Poolman was convinced the lion was dead. He saw no reason to put another hole in a magnificent lion skin. Henry reportedly said, “Congratulation!” At the sound of a human voice, the lion raised its head, spun around, and with flattened ears and bared teeth came like a bullet straight for Pete Barrett.

 

Despite his size Poolman moved with the agility of a cat. In what his colleagues know was a typical gesture, and later confirmed by Barrett and Garcia, Poolman sprang in front of Barrett to take the lion’s charge himself. At the same moment he fired two shots simultaneously from his .470 double rifle. Henry shots were so closely fired they sounded like one. The lion was in full charge by the time it reached Poolman, and while its believed the lion took both of Henry’s .470 bullets at point-blank range, they did not stop him. Instead the four hundred pounds cat knocked Poolman over like a sack of cotton, and his rifle flew from his grasp. Even the impact with Poolman’s muscular body hardly slowed the lion. It went over him intent on Barrett, and caught Pete, throwing him to the ground. While one arm was in the lion’s jaws, Barrett fought back with his free arm. Behind the lion, Henry was back on his feet, but he was unarmed. There was not a moment to loose, no time to search in the grass for his .470, reload, and shoot the lion again., seeing the lion savaging his client, Henry seized the enraged animal by the tail, and with all his great strength he tried to haul the big cat off Barrett and deflect its ferocious attack upon himself.

 

While this was all happening in the blink of an eye, Henry’s gun bearer Gatia rushed in with the 7mm rifle, and quickly fired three shots into the lion’s rib cage. The lion did not react immediately to the shots, for its adrenaline was up. With remarkable purpose it continued to savage Barrett on the ground, while Poolman tried to bodily tear the lion off his client.

In this frenzied melee of struggling men and a crazed lion, the series of events was not exactly known, but it seemed that David, the replacement gun bearer, now wildly excited and probably very frightened as well, was facing the lion while Henry was behind the huge animal, desperately trying to drag it off Barrett. David leveled the shotgun at what he thought was the lion’s head or body. Facing the lion from a few yards away, David hastily fired the twelve-bore shotgun. The deadly load of high-brass buckshot missed the lion and, at a range of only a few yards, the full charge plowed into Henry’s chest, killing him instantly. :shock:

Offline Con

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 149
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2004, 11:54:17 AM »
Lawdog,
As a mental exercise, as I'll probably never get to hunt lion. If I was looking to chase them on a guided hunt on foot my personal calibre limit would be .35, nothing smaller. I'd want at least 250gr of projectile (soft  round nosed) and I think I'd be comfortable at a minimum of 3500fpe. Lets start at the 35 Whelan and go upwards. That's for both undisturbed animals and a possible clean up situation.

Sorry, just re-read the post, you wanted energy. Okay then minimum 3500fpe, very comfortable at 4000fpe and above, but you shouldn't divorce calibre or bullet weight and construction from the equation. Otherwise a .30calibre magnum with a 180gr Sierra Gameking generating 4000fpe could be considered adequate.

Out of interest what do you guys in Nth America consider adequate for your brown bears? Would that be a reasonable comparison? How heavy is a black bear? Is that species of bear more in line with a lion for weight and size?

Con

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2004, 10:58:58 AM »
Con,

Quote
Out of interest what do you guys in Nth America consider adequate for your brown bears? Would that be a reasonable comparison? How heavy is a black bear? Is that species of bear more in line with a lion for weight and size?


I have taken three Brown Bears, two with a .300 Weatherby and one with a .340 Weatherby and if I go after #4 I intend to use my .375 Weatherby magnum.  Was never really happy with the results I had on my first three.  I have also taken one Polar Bear and the guide would not let me use anything smaller than a .375 H&H.  I am glad I listened to him.

Black Bears can reach up to 700 pounds and larger, generally they run much less.  They are, generally, less temperamental than Brown Bears but can and have killed many humans.  Not a year goes by that someone, or two, finds out they are not teddy bears.  They are more in line size wise to African Lions and maybe there is no difference needed in stopping power.  The lion moves faster than a Black Bear and is supposed to have a worse temper.  I know a number of hunters that have taken African Lions using .300 magnum and smaller but I don't believe I would.  The PH's I have talked to most generally recommend a .375 H&H and I see no reason to go against their experience.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline BS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 147
    • http://webpages.charter.net/fam-strick/web/index.htm
How Much Energy For A Lion Cartridge?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2004, 12:25:29 PM »
Let me share a published hunting story about hunting big bears, that I have always remembered. Some of you may have read it also!

After shooting a big bear, it turns and runs up a brushy creek bed. The hunter thinks to him self " when I came to Alaska with my .375, I thought that I was over gunned, now it feels like a .22" having to go up the brushy draw to recover the bear!

I rebarrelled a rifle into a 340 and thought I would have a "do it all" gun!?
It is shrinking!!!

But if I were going after one that would eat me, I would be carrying a .416 Taylor! Only cause I don't have a .458. But I would really like to have a .50 Alaskan to play with, in a lever gun!!!!

NO-BS
Get Close, and Whack'em Hard!