Need help.... Recoil, Ammo, Scope, Deer.

[reed16dodge]

I am new to this site and this is my first post.

I am looking to buy a TC pistol.  I am mainly using the gun for deer hunting and maybe black bear.   Where I hunt, you can't use a rifle.  So I would like to try a pistol in a rifle caliber for longer shots.

Before I go on much more here is my main problem, recoil.  I just had back surgery and even when it heals, I still have to watch recoil so I don't cause more problems.  Last year when I shot a deer with my 12g shotgun, it about put me on the ground in tears. 

Enough with the sob story, here it goes, I am looking for a round that is low on recoil (recoil compared to a 44mag with a 6" barrel), a round good for deer at 100 - 200yds, a round that I can buy factory loaded ammo in, and a scope.  I am open to any and all suggestions.

The only way I would reload my own ammo is if someone is willing to give me a list of everything I need, including loading data, or sell me reloads.  I use to shoot IDPA competition in 9mm and load my own ammo every week.  It gets old real quick. 

Thanks
Doug

[gr8ful]

Encore in 25-06 with a good variable scope, shoot 120gr bullets, recoil is managable (compared to 44 mag) factory ammo is available and with PRACTICE you should easily be able to kill a deer out to 200 and beyond.  I like to practice at 2 liter soda bottles turned on their side it is just slightly smaller than the kill zone on an average whitetail. good luck

[shot1]

In the Encore pistol a 243 Win or the 25-06 Rem would be a good choice. I shoot the 25-06 for deer in a rifle as my go to rifle. I have killed hundreds of deer with about everything from a 22lr through a 45-70 in rifles and the 25-06 with 100 to 120 gr bullets is the king in my book. I like the 117 Sierra bullet best and Federal loads this in some of their ammo.  In a T/C Contender pistol I would choose a 30-30 win with a 14" barrel. I currently use a 14" 30-30AI in a Contender with handloads and 125 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets at 2670 fps and 200 yards on a deer would be no sweat. But you have to handload it. For factory ammo only I would go with the Encore in 25-06 with a good 2.5 - 8 or 3 - 12 power  pistol scope. You can only shoot what you can see. With the 25-06 you should be able to get at least 2700 fps with 115 to 120 gr bullets and that is equal to the 257 Roberts rifle and it has put a many a deer in the freezer well beyond 200 yards. With the Encore you will have to have a trigger job done on it to get it down lighter so you can shoot it accurately as a pistol but that does not cost much.

[Bugflipper]

In taking your shoulder out of the equation you are putting less force to your back. The arm tends to fly up a bit which bleeds off some of the recoil, instead of it driving back into you. There are literally dozens of choices on calibers, including the tried and trued contender class calibers. I would recommend a muzzle break to bleed a little of the kick off. In contender 7-30 waters is the old standard. But it can be a little hard to find ammo for. 35 rem is plentiful, but the trajectory is a little low. 30-30 same thing but more plentiful. You may read up on the lever revolution ammo and see if anything looks good in a contender. My choice would be 6.8 spc rem. It should have lighter recoil and a flatter trajectory than the standard contender factory deer rounds.

With the encore I will go along with gr8ful and also include the 6.5 grendel. It will not likely be available at the local box store, but just like the 6.8 it can be had in bulk a bit cheaper than regular factory rounds. Also be aware that all of the contender calibers are available in the encore. And it is a good idea with either platform to get a 22lr barrel to practice and small game hunt with.
http://www.bullberry.com/TCbarrels.html
http://www.bullberry.com/encore.html

[spinafish]

I would look long and hard at the 6.8 SPC..I have a 23" factory barrell and it is so accurate it is scary..have not taken a head of game with it yet..too many others in line...

[luckydawg13]

hello and welcome
i to have a bad back the state i live in only lets me use a straight walled case
so i had a barrel made i went with a 13"  454 heave barrel and had it mag Na ported
shoots like a dream i also have a 14" 44mag contender with a custom break on it
my 10 year old son likes to shoot fullhouse loads in (24gr of H110 240gr XTP)
so you may wont to look into porting or a good break they are louder but they do work

[reed16dodge]

Thanks everyone for the info so far, but thanks to luckydawg13 I had to check into the type of cartridge I can use.  It had never even crossed my mind about the type of cartridge I can use here in Michigan.  I hunt below the rifle line and here is what I found about hunting with a handgun below the rifle line:

"A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined".

With this info now, my options are limited: 357, 41, 44, 45, 454, 460, 500, and maybe a 45/70.  So which one is good for a 200yd shot?  If I go above the 44mag, is the recoil controllable?  Is it worth going with the 460 and do I have ported or a muzzle brake installed?  Do I go with a TC pistol or am I better off getting a revolver?

Thanks
Doug

[luckydawg13]

if you need a 200 yrd shot i think that the 460 is your best bet this will kick a bit
sent you a pm if you get a 460 you can shoot 454 & 45LC out of the same barrel
encore all the way a contender in 357/max 41/44mag/45LC
there is a 480

[gr8ful]

With all of those cartidges 200 yrd trajectories are going to be high.  That is not saying that with a lot of practice you can't reliably hit and kill a deer at that range, just that good range estimation, (or a laser rangefinder) and actually firing your handgun at that range is very important.  Also be able to stay within your limitations.  Personally my own limit is the range that I can hit a quart oil bottle 100% of the time.  With the encore 25-06 that range is 200 yrds, with the contender 45-70 it is 100 yrds.  I would limit the 357,41, 44, and 45 colt to 100yrds the 454, 460, 480, and 500 and 45-70 should have the energy for a 200 yrd reliable kill shot IF you can master the recoil and blast these rounds generate.  Cool thing about the TC's if you try a barrel/cartidge combo you don't like, or just doesn't work out for you, you can always sell it or trade it in the classified section.  I think 460 would be a good choice for you because of the many different levels of factory ammo available from light cowboy 45 colts to full blown 460. 

[shot1]

Your best bet for lower recoil and flatter trajectory for 200 yard shots is the 357 MAXIMUM in a 14" barrel Contender. I would get into reloading because ammo is a little tougher to find and no matter what caliber your get you will need to practice A LOT to be able to make your shots especially if you are shooting over 100 yards. With the big boomers 454, 460 etc. to keep the recoil down you need a muzzle break and those things are LOUD. If you shoot one in a hunting situation were you don't have time to put in ear protection (it will happen more often than you think) your ears are GONE and your hearing is damaged for life. Plus the trajectory of those big heavy slugs is like trying to throw a cinder block. They drop a lot and quickly and is very easy to miss beyond 100 yards if you don't know EXACTLY the yardage and EXACTLY where your bullet will be at that yardage. Remember in hunting 99% of the time you only get ONE SHOT.

[Junior1942]

Your best bet for lower recoil and flatter trajectory for 200 yard shots is the 357 MAXIMUM in a 14" barrel Contender. I would get into reloading because ammo is a little tougher to find and no matter what caliber your get you will need to practice A LOT to be able to make your shots especially if you are shooting over 100 yards. With the big boomers 454, 460 etc. to keep the recoil down you need a muzzle break and those things are LOUD. If you shoot one in a hunting situation were you don't have time to put in ear protection (it will happen more often than you think) your ears are GONE and your hearing is damaged for life. Plus the trajectory of those big heavy slugs is like trying to throw a cinder block. They drop a lot and quickly and is very easy to miss beyond 100 yards if you don't know EXACTLY the yardage and EXACTLY where your bullet will be at that yardage. Remember in hunting 99% of the time you only get ONE SHOT.

Hey, you know some stuff!  Post WAY more often!

[The Famous Grouse]

Thanks everyone for the info so far, but thanks to luckydawg13 I had to check into the type of cartridge I can use.  It had never even crossed my mind about the type of cartridge I can use here in Michigan.  I hunt below the rifle line and here is what I found about hunting with a handgun below the rifle line:

"A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined".

With this info now, my options are limited: 357, 41, 44, 45, 454, 460, 500, and maybe a 45/70.  So which one is good for a 200yd shot? 

None of them are "good" for a 200 yard shot.   

All of them, at best, are extremely marginal for anything beyond 120.  I hunted for years with a .357 Rem Max, which IMO is the best straight walled deer cartridge available.  There are two things you're going to have to understand about handgun hunting with straight case cartridges. 

First, they are a lot more like a shotgun with slugs than they are like a rifle with a short barrel.  Therefore, their effective range isn't going to be anything like a deer rifle.

Part of the challenge of handgun hunting is that you need to get close.  I took up handgun hunting because I loved the challenge and, to be honest, rifle hunting was just gettting too easy.   Any deer I could see was basically meat in the freezer.

Secondly, while you  could take a 120 yard + poke with these cartridges, most people shouldn't.   From what I've seen on the range, most people VASTLY under estimate how difficult it is to hit a precise point on a target at anything over 100 yards.   They see a scope on a handgun and assume it's going to be easy-- just like shooting a rifle.  So I let them take a few pokes at 100 with my contender.  Most decent rifle shooters can't even keep the contender on the paper at 100 from a bench.

Hunting handguns demand practice if you expect to be able to hit anything.  Even if you shoot short range pop-pop style handguns it becomes a whole new game when the target is out at the 100 or 125 mark, especially if you start practicing using shooting sticks or other realisitc field positions.  Anyone can eventually shoot well off a bench with sandbags, but unless you've got a bench and sandbags in your deer stand, more will be required.

Grouse

 

[Grumulkin]

I've taken quite a few animals with a handgun.  My 460 S&W Magnum with 250 gr. SST/ML bullets drops about 7.5 inches from 100 to 200 yards.  With the right load, accuracy can be very good as well.  My longest shot with it was a 180 yard shot at a Klipspringer.  If you're looking for light recoil though, it's probably not the one to choose.  Mine, topped with a Leupold 2.5-8X handgun scope with a braked 15 inch barrel still has more recoil than the vast majority of handgun shooters would wish to deal with.

For what you want, I would consider the 357 Maximum with a brake.  Actually, without a brake and with a scope, the recoil should be less than with a 44 Magnum so maybe you wouldn't even need a brake.  Though I've never shot a 357 Maximum, I have a 357 Herrett which has similar ballistics.  I'm not sure it's a 200 yard gun but it's definitely a 100 yard gun.  I took a Black Wildebeest with mine using 158 gr. Hornady hollow point bullets.

[kirkwhitaker]

Because of the cartridge limitations I would consider the 357 max to be a good choice. If you could handle a little more recoil a 375 win with a brake on it would also be a possibility in a contender. I have one and have taken several deer with it at the 100 yd mark.  Either of these would be a hand loading option..the 357max because you cant buy it anymore and the 375 because it is hard to find. I did shoot a 460 in an encore one time and found it manageable. My fav two are a no go for you...the 30-30 and the 7-30 waters. The 7-30 is accurate and can do 200yds from a good rest. The straight walled limitation does hurt your choices.  Put good glass on whatever you get...Burris, Leopold or similar. I have a Simmons on one of mine and it is OK...The Busnells are OK too...but the B and L are way clearer. Main thing is practice, since it is way harder to shoot the short gun at 100 yds, not to mention further out.

[luckydawg13]

For what you want, I would consider the 357 Maximum with a brake.  Actually, without a brake and with a scope, the recoil should be less than with a 44 Magnum so maybe you wouldn't even need a brake.  Though I've never shot a 357 Maximum, I have a 357 Herrett which has similar ballistics.  I'm not sure it's a 200 yard gun but it's definitely a 100 yard gun.  I took a Black Wildebeest with mine using 158 gr. Hornady hollow point bullets.

i had a 357 max contender 14" barrel and a 10"44mag the max had a twist to it and a snap that heart were the 44 had a push i sold both of them and bought a 14"44mag
but i do miss the max barrel i did put a break on it wowwee it was loud i think if i get a new barrel made it will be a max butt on a encore frame heave barrel 16"1/4
 

[eclarsen]

The 357 Max, 12" barrel, Burris 2X7 electrodot on the Contender is my choice for handgunning in IL.  We have the same straightwall requirement as you do and the Max seemed to fit my needs.

I just got the set-up a couple of months ago and have only had it at the range once.  I didn't feel the need for a brake.  I'll have to spend more time at the range to know my limitations, but I don't have many opportunities beyond 50-75 yds in the woods I hunt.  I wasn't looking for a 200 yd handgun in the first place.

Perhaps you can find someone that will let you try out their handgun and see if your body can deal w/ it.  Good luck with your choice.

[Dezynco]

The 357 Max would be a great choice, you'll need to handload your own because factory ammo is scarce and expensive.  However, the nice thing is that you can practice with 38 Special and 357 Magnum ammo, both are readily available!  I'm pretty sure that a 14" or 15" barrel with good scope are perfectly capable of a killing shot on a deer out to around 200 yards, but you'll need some practice to make that long of a shot.  It's further than you think when you're actually making that shot!

Recoil with the 357 Max is very moderate when compared with some other choices.

Another cartridge that has been mentioned is the 375 Winchester, but the recoil can be pretty stiff with some "hot" loads.  This cartridge is capable of 200 yards + with some practice.  I have a 24" Rifle barrel that I'm confident out to 300 yards, but a rifle is much different than a pistol!  Again, you'll just about have to handload for this cartridge since the  factory ammo is expensive, and you don't have any "download" options for it.

[Bugflipper]

I wouldn't rule out the .444 either. Chop ten inches off this 24" barrel data and you will still have a 200 yard cartridge. With a muzzle break it should be in 44 mag territory on the ouch factor. Not that huge of a discomfort in the heavy TC platforms. http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

[luckydawg13]

i thought if you used a 444 or a 45/70 in a contender you had to use light loads
i will run with the rest that say in a straight walled case to keep shots at 100yards or less
with my 454 i can hit a pop can at 100 yards but i don't thing that i will shoot past that
at a deer
 

[Bugflipper]

Luckydawg, frame stretch is also a concern with the contender platform when you get into the heavier rounds. The encore platform is better suited for all of the bigger rounds. I know members have shot the lr in contenders. And have stated it safe. But I would worry about the long term of it stretching. Also the encore is 3/4 lb heavier which would reduce recoil a little more. I had a 45-70 in a contender and used to load full power hunting loads but kept the CUP down. Never had a problem out of it stretching, but quite a few folks have.

[Grumulkin]

If you're going for something with less recoil, don't go for the 444 Marlin.  Unless you're shooting reduced loads, recoil is on par with the 460 S&W Magnum.

[Junior1942]

There's several freebie ballistic programs out there with a recoil-compute section.  I use "PointBlank."  My T-C 357 minimax 10" octagon weighs 2 lbs 9 oz or 2.6 lbs.  The recoil of a 190 gr bullet @ 1724 fps is about 20 ft/lbs or more than my right wrist can take, even for just one shot.  Using PointBlank's recoil calculator, I've discovered that about 15 ft/lbs of recoil is max for me.

That 190 gr bullet @ only 1400 fps gives 14.98 ft/lbs of recoil.  It don't need to go any faster for this ol' boy......  I suggest you reduce your velocity or add weight to your pistol until you reach your recoil tolerance level.  A broken wrist probably isn't any fun.  Plus, forever afterward you might consider 10 ft/lbs as too much recoil due to non-perfect healing of your wrist bones. 

Not telling you what to do.  But ol' Issac's laws of motion are still in effect--for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.

[Bugflipper]

Research the JP howitzer/sherman tank muzzle brake. Confirmed 100% reduction in recoil energy. The most effective brake to date.

[reed16dodge]

Thanks for all the info, it is very helpful.  I was really hoping for a 200 yard set up but with the limitations I'll have to settle for a 100 yard shot.  I have been checking into everyone’s advice and I think I'm leaning more towards the 357 maximum in an encore frame so it's a little heavier.  I was looking at having MGM make a full bull barrel, but what length?  I like the burris handgun scopes.  Will a reticle scope work with this round?  I know I will have to load my own rounds so any reloading data will be very useful to get me started. 

Muzzle brakes, I really don't want to use one because I know they are very load and I don't always remember ear protection.  Do I really need one for this round?  I know I can have the barrel threaded when I order it, so if I do feel the need to put one on I can without down time.  Has anyone used a mag-na-brake by mag-na-port?  I read on their website that the holes in the brake are drilled forward so it doesn't make it any louder.  Does anyone know if that’s true?

Thanks again for all the info.

[luckydawg13]

i have the 4 port mag-na-port on my 454 casull 13"  heave barrel i love this round its a tack driver recoil is not that bad you can work your way up 45 colt light loads to hot 454
i load my own from a mild cast load to a hot xtp load the mag-na-ports that i have work
i had a  10" 44mag contender that kicked more  then this barrel does
 
 
 

[Grumulkin]

If you can shoot a 44 Magnum without a brake then the 357 Maximum should be no problem without a brake as the recoil will be less but you should still use ear protection.

I like the MGM barrel idea.  As for length, I would go somewhere between 10 and 14 inches; probably 12 inches and would not go with a full bull barrel as they're a bit heavy, not that attractive to my eye and aren't going to add to accuracy.  The 357 Herrett barrel I have for my Contender is tapered and 10 inches long and makes a quite handy package.  I would go with a tapered or heavy barrel contour.

As for scopes, my preference runs to Leupolds.  Before you buy, go to the web sites of MidwayUSA, Cabela's or elsewhere and read the reviews on whatever scope you're thinking of getting.  Last I looked, and it has been awhile, the reviews on the Burris scopes weren't that good.

[Bullseye]

Personal preference, but I would never recommend a 357 Max for someone wanting low recoil.  It has a hard thump and twist in my opinion.

[Bugflipper]

I believe the 4 port is good for 40% reduction. Even the 22lr needs ear protection in pistol with high veloocity ammo. If you cut to 100 the 44 mag and 240 gr bullet would be a superb choice.

[chiefs50]

For shots at 100 yards and under, I like the 14" .45 Colt in my Contender.  I've never shot a 357 Max so I don't know how the recoil compares.