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Offline whitedogone

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Combat Firearms Report Card
« on: January 12, 2011, 12:43:49 PM »
Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq This email is from a Marine who's in Iraq ; his buddy Jordan provides many of the details.


No politics here; just a Marine with a bird's eye view opinion.


US Weapons:


1) The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and weapons lights on the pica tinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment.


They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinder block structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.


Fun fact: 1) Random autopsies on dead insurgents show a high level of opiate use.


2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down.. Universally considered a piece of sh-t. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial dis-assembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).


3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.


4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect. (Great weapon - I used these when transporting prisoners. Bud)


5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!) Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.


6) The M2 50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.


7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol around out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, one can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it.. The old government model.45's are being re-issued en masse.


8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.


9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.


10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.


11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round.


The bad news: Hot as sh-t to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat(which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bullsh-t about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.


12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.


13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I can't help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.


Bad guy weapons:


1) Mostly AK47's. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like sh-t. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. ( Iran , again)


2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dogsh-t. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.


3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan 's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155 mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor.
Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran , who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges, in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.


4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan 's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan 's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did).. More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.


Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.


Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.


Who are the bad guys? Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe ). Most enter Iraq through Syria(with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.), and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along theEuphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.


Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in various "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.). These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off.


The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian) are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. They have been fighting the Russians for years. In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. They have had a spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured, or gave up long ago.


Bad Guy Tactics: When they are engaged on an infantry leve,l they get their asses kicked every time! Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AK's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time (see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room).


We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre Gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.


Fun facts: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber sh-t. The new strategy is just simple attrition. The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and especially Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons, and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for inflicting civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members, especially children, is common to influence people they are trying to influence but can't reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.. The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a sh-t about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option. The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well; others aren't worth a ######. Most do okay with American support.


Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went right up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.


Morale: According to Jordan , morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe that they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see sh-t like "Are we losing in Iraq " on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food, and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, is that there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just can't stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).


Anyway, that's it, hope you found it interesting. END QUOTE






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Offline Troyboy

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 11:08:36 AM »
That was a good read.
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Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 08:35:48 AM »
AR report is the same as Viet Nam,the government moves slow

Offline bigbird09

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 09:05:32 AM »
I feel sorry for the guys over there packing m16, even m4's.  I never did like them especially since they were chambered for 5.56.  I have heard people praise this round and say its better than the 7.62 fired by the AK-47,  honestly though I don't think any of them has seen combat.(and no I'm not in the military so i haven't seen it either, this is just my humble opinion on things)  I know the trick is small round, carry more ammo, blah blah, but to be honest I have heard more stories of it takeing 2 to 3 shoots to stop an enemy with a 5.56 is it really worth carrying the smaller round so you can carry more?  I also can't believe that it has ben 40 years since the m-16 seen its battlefield deployment and its still a piece of crap, maybe one day they will get a weapon system worth a crap.
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Offline thxmrgarand

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 02:10:33 PM »
A fellow gave me many issues of the American Rifleman from the WWII era and I have been reading them.  On every page there is striking evidence of how America has changed from that war to this one.  One thing that struck me is how the ads would be seen by liberals today; for instance, Weaver and Redfield ads showing a GI sniper aiming directly on the reader with captions like, "Here's the last thing a Jap sees," and ads from firms like Savage that show pictures of arms Savage was then building with captions saying that after the war Savage would resume building the guns Americans all want to get back to using.  One entire issue is dedicated to the US Marine Corps. and every issues is very patriotic (and of course the NRA remains very patriotic).  Another thing that slightly surprised me is the number of ads by people wanting to buy ammo.  Other ads are from firms wanting to buy lathes and milling machines.  All those want ads more or less say, name your price.  I am also surprised by how far along WWII was before Garands became common, and the first combat reports of the Garand were only somewhat favorable.

The February 1941 issue has a long article that goes into much detail about how the Japanese infantry man was trained and equipped.  I cannot read that article and then believe that December 7, 1941 was a surprise to anyone whatsoever.  Why so much of the fleet was left so concentrated and vulnerable yet FDR was not hanged is a mystery.

Offline pmeisel

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 10:20:25 AM »
Thanks for the mideast report.  Mostly consistent with what my son tells me, except less dissatisfaction with the M4, but he was in a vehicle supported, close to base security environment.  Different problem.

Quote
The February 1941 issue has a long article that goes into much detail about how the Japanese infantry man was trained and equipped.  I cannot read that article and then believe that December 7, 1941 was a surprise to anyone whatsoever.  Why so much of the fleet was left so concentrated and vulnerable yet FDR was not hanged is a mystery.

The naval brass, and the Pacific based army brass, were concerned about sabotage.  They didn't think the Japanese had the ability to strike Pearl Harbor (or the Phillipines).  They were worried about Wake, etc.

Offline Dinny

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 04:25:31 PM »
Having been in combat for 18 months collectively, I must concur with most of what is stated. Especially the part about the effectiveness of the 7.62x39. I've had the dura mater on my hands to prove it's effectiveness. :'( It penetrated through a few kevlar helmets just fine. However, my M4 did not jam. I kept it very clean and I never used the CLP (that stuff is too sticky). I used Militec-1 Oil exactly as instructed.

http://militec1.com/

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline bigbird09

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »
Having been in combat for 18 months collectively, I must concur with most of what is stated. However, my M4 did not jam. I kept it very clean and I never used the CLP (that stuff is too sticky). I used Militec-1 Oil exactly as instructed.

http://militec1.com/

Thanks, Dinny

Ya I have never really heard of m4 feed jams from some of the few that I have talked to,  most of their dissatisfaction is that of the 5.56 round.  I wonder how many of the jams had to do with improper care of their service rifle,  as a posed to rifle design failures, kinda like the m16.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 05:45:09 PM »
I hear that a lot that the m16 and it's offspring work well when properly maintained.
That's nice , but a battle weapon should work well even when poorly maintained.
The theology that gave us the m16 and the 5.56 came from cowards who knew they would never have to defend their lives with them.
Logistics and strategy don't mean crap to a soldier trying stop a relentless enemy hell bent on taking his life. Give him a weapon that kills no matter how tough the conditions regardless of whether he has had time to clean it. The 5.56 is all about removing the enemy from the fight. Screw that, give them a cartridge that removes the fight from the enemy.

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Offline bigbird09

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 05:53:48 PM »
I think at the minimum it should be a .30 cal (7.62) bullet.  Maybe not the big 308 of the m14, but something similar.  7.62x39 would be a good replacement,  its a short round so they can carry more, it has great short range performance and if they need the reach out and touch someone capability most squads have a designated marksman with a m14 or similar for the longer range engagments.
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

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Malin v17/.17HMR, Handi-rifle/.223, Mossburg 500A/12g, Winchester 1300/20g, CVA eclipse magnum/.50

Offline Dinny

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 05:54:32 PM »
I have yet to see a rifle that is 100% reliable all the time and has the features that our military requires (detachable sights, rails, forward grips, M203 grenade launcher) and still get +/- MOA accuracy. The AK-47 doesn't even fit those requirements, +/- MOA accurate it is not. Let's use what we have and keep it clean when we're not using it.

That's just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 05:57:22 PM »
A short 30 cal makes good sense. Throw a 110-125gr bullet in there at about 2500fps and we're doing good.

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline bigbird09

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »
I would take a rifle with a big round that can stop what I can hit that is reliable, and fairly accurate than something that jams a lot, but is super accurate.  They got one thing right with the ak 47 with going with looser tolerances that allow more dirt and grim and not jam.  What a company needs to do is find a happy medium between the loose tolerances of the ak-47 with the better accuarcy of a m16 or m4
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Malin v17/.17HMR, Handi-rifle/.223, Mossburg 500A/12g, Winchester 1300/20g, CVA eclipse magnum/.50

Offline ruffhunter

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2011, 11:08:10 AM »
I seen that posted a couple of years ago, i believe on glocktalk.  I think the 6.8 would be the cheap and easy fix with the current AR.  Just a change of the barrel, maybe bolt.  I believe the round was designed to be useable in current 5.56 magazine but one less round at max.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 06:20:01 PM »
A short 30 cal makes good sense. Throw a 110-125gr bullet in there at about 2500fps and we're doing good.

Thanks, Dinny
I believe that Remington is trying to sell the military on their new .30 Remington AR round. It uses the standard .308 bullet, so bullet weight is just a matter of bullet selection, all the military needs to do is to purchase a new upper, it fits on a standard M-16/M-4 frame, and from what I read, the old magazines can be used with slight modification (probably to the follower). Remingtons' factory load for a  125gr. FMJ bullet travels at 2,677fps, which is "just what the doctor ordered" for deer (read people) sized game.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2011, 07:36:24 PM »
The RPG was definitely the enemy weapon that most of us feared in Viet Nam too.  You  would think that our side could come up with a weapon as good as that. The 40mms just don't have the punch when they land.

If IUDs are so bad, why not get out of the vehicles and on our feet.

While the 7.62X39 may be a good round, I think the AK is a piece of junk. The reason the bad guys use them mostly for sound effects is because that's about all they're good for. The trigger pull on the one I handled was a joke.

Offline bigbird09

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2011, 07:58:39 PM »
what do you expect form a 50 year old weapon?  honestly they did something right with the AK or it would still be around.  Its stamped steel so they are dirt cheap, and for the most part extremely reliable,  you say junk, I say its good enough,  look at how many people have been killed from that piece of junk
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

novice shooter, gunsmith, reloader, that is always open to help, tips, and tricks.

Malin v17/.17HMR, Handi-rifle/.223, Mossburg 500A/12g, Winchester 1300/20g, CVA eclipse magnum/.50

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »
Interesting read. Complaints about the M9? Hasn't anyone explained to these youngsters that a pistol is just a pistol?

45,000-50,000 killed by out forces? I wonder how we'd feel if a foreign power on our soil had killed 50,000 of our citizens. Get out.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Dand

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Re: Combat Firearms Report Card
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 12:11:39 AM »
REaders might be interested that the latest issue of American Rifleman touches on this subject as well as the need for troops proficient in longer range riflery and marksmanship.
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liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA