Author Topic: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy  (Read 1173 times)

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TM7

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Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« on: May 07, 2011, 12:16:22 PM »
US Supreme Court Blocks Consumer Access to Courts...email to TM7...fyi..The Citizen is minimized again
 

Today the United States Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, issued an incredibly disturbing opinion for United States consumers (i.e. all of us). In AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion the Court held that corporations can ban consumers' rights to take corporations to court, individually or in class actions, through arbitration clauses in consumer contracts.
Virtually every consumer contract we enter into contains buried within it a term saying that by signing the contract we agree to settle all disputes in arbitration and do not have a right to band our claims together in court in a class action. In the case of Discover Bank v. Superior Court, 36 Cal. 4th 148 (2005) the California Supreme Court held that the inclusion of such clauses in consumer contracts was unconscionable in light of the fact that consumers have absolutely no say as to the terms of the agreements they enter into with corporations. Thus those clauses are unenforceable and consumers are allowed to file class action claims in state courts. Today, the United States Supreme Court overturned that opinion holding that states do not have the right to find a contract's arbitration clause unenforceable because their ability to do so is preempted by the Federal Arbitration Act.
What does this mean for you and I? Well, in short, without access to courts and without the right to band together in class actions, consumers will have virtually no ability to put an end to bad and illegal corporate practices and will have virtually no ability to recover any damages they suffer resulting from bad corporate practices. ( I believe this is the trend with 'collective bargaining, too...to eliminate class action or action citizen groups acting in unison for common goals)  Most individuals, for example, are not going to take a corporation to arbitration for a small claim of say $50. If they did so, the cost of arbitration to them would likely exceed the amount of their claim. Likewise, in arbitration, consumers would have no right or ability to obtain an injunction stopping a corporation from further engaging in an illegal practice. In short then it means that any time you have to sign a contract for a product or service, corporations have been given free reign to falsely advertise their products, breach the terms of the contract, and outright steal money from you and there is little or nothing you can do about it.
The threat of class action litigation has often served as a deterrent on corporations from engaging in illegal and un-consumer friendly practices. Through their decision, the Supreme Court has removed this deterrence and corporations are free to rip consumers off with virtual impunity and without fear of legal action that would otherwise vindicate the rights of consumers.
Unsurprisingly, this story appears to have received very little media coverage despite its far reaching implications for virtually every person in the United States. The Supreme Court has given corporations yet another victory in their quest to utterly dominate the people of the United States. Today is a truly sad day for consumers - all of us - the People of the United States of America. Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 03:51 PM PDT

Wow!  here is the link from SCOTUS: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-893.pdf

Offline Gary G

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 12:34:34 PM »
This country was built on contract law. If arbitration is in the contract and you don't like it, then don't sign the contract. Take your business elsewhere. If you agree to arbitration and then don't like what the arbitrator decides, then don't be a cry baby and seek the government to interfere.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 05:25:55 AM »
This decison leaves consumers without recourse...this decison also trumps states rights. This decision further demotes citizens and advances corporate interest and is therefore unConstitutional..
Well, no, it doesn't.  And this is a huge reach in "logic" even for you.  Here's an idea... one I love... Take responsibility for yourself.  You don't want an arbitration clause in your contract because you want to be able to make wealthy plaintiff's lawyers uber-wealthy plaintiff's lawyers?  Fine, don't buy something with an arbitration clause.  Problem solved.

It makes me sad that we have become a nation that just declares things are unfair. 

The idea that this is "unconstitutional" because it, "advances corporate interest" is laughable.  Please quote me the section that supports your claim.  The exact section. 

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 06:15:14 AM »
So the section is?

Offline us920669

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 09:14:58 AM »
Reply #3 nails it.  I am generally pleased with the justices TM wants to impeach, and I am also happy with the corporations I deal with.  If they tick me off too bad I'll just go buy my stuff somewhere else, and corporations are aware that we can all do that.

I found myself involved in a class action recently.  Like everyone these days I eagerly scanned the document to see if I might get rich over something I wasn't even aware of.  A few years back we flew to Reno for the SCI convention.  We wanted to drive around so I rented a car.  It turns out the rental desk at Reno had failed to notice some obtuse bit of fine print in the avalanche of regulatory BS sweeping across the country night and day and had inadvertently clipped us for a couple of bucks.  I didn't know, I payed my money and got my car, I was perfectly happy.  I sincerely believe it was an honest mistake.  If the company had sent me my couple of bucks I would have been pleased but no, the deal was if I participated in the action I would get $10 off the next time I used that particular company.  Reading on, I saw where the lawyers would get - I don't recall for sure - but I think in excess of one million, and if I understood it right, their cut went up with everyone who signed the form and sent it back.  The whole thing seemed so sleazy that I just dumped it all in the trash.  What bothers me the most is that everyone's next car rental is going to cost more than the couple of bucks at the heart of the matter. 

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 10:08:20 AM »
"don't like what the arbitrator decides"................

Not disagreeing here at all, but folks do need to remember that the arbitrator works for the corporation that you have the disagreement with.

Also, corporate decisions will always get biased favor from the US government.

Contracts connote fair agreements in mutual interest...this decsion negates that basic spirit. This decison leaves consumers without recourse...this decison also trumps states rights. This decision further demotes citizens and advances corporate interest and is therefore unConstitutional. This decesion is just another 'banana' in the 'Great Banana Republic'.  People ought to catch on.

..TM7
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.

Yep. But then again, most corps. offering such services will be protected by the same laws, and be set up to operate similarly to others. So the choice of doing without the service may not always be feasible to some.

us920669, yes sir, the only ones to truly benefit are those in the legal system. Kinda seems  that things are set up that way doesn't it? 

Offline jimster

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 10:20:53 AM »
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This country was built on contract law.

That must be true...as each one of us is under contract according to law...soon as you sign your tax forms is one example.

As a side note, I notice more and more people at work are using a 1041 for their taxes...putting the name in CAPS...and then signing as the fiduciary/agent for themselves...and getting ALL their fed taxes back using this method.  A few years ago I thought these people were nuts and would get into trouble, come to find out, the IRS HELPS them do these forms properly.  Could not believe it at first, but so far none of them has been in trouble, the IRS sends them back every penny that was taken out of their checks.  Must be some kind of legal contract thing there?

Anyway...the U.S. is a mass of contract laws, and it seems we are all under contract.

Must be a difference between U.S citizens and American citizens...? 

Anyway...not sure if this has anything to do with the thread, but it does seem everything is set up under contract, including all of us. If we agree to it that is.

Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 11:13:09 AM »
Quote
As a side note, I notice more and more people at work are using a 1041 for their taxes...putting the name in CAPS...and then signing as the fiduciary/agent for themselves...and getting ALL their fed taxes back using this method.  A few years ago I thought these people were nuts and would get into trouble, come to find out, the IRS HELPS them do these forms properly.  Could not believe it at first, but so far none of them has been in trouble, the IRS sends them back every penny that was taken out of their checks.  Must be some kind of legal contract thing there?


Jimster, that makes no sense.  A 1041 is a fiduciary income tax return.  It does not entitle the underlying party to a return of "every penny that was taken out of their checks".  It also requires the person using it to have either set up a trust or to be deceased.  Don't believe everything you hear.
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Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2011, 11:19:39 AM »
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Contracts connote fair agreements in mutual interest

TM, who told you this fairy tale?  Contracts may be "fair" or "unfair".  People have the right to enter into bad agreements, just as well as good ones.

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This decison leaves consumers without recourse

Because you say it does?  No, consumers under these contracts have recourse to arbitration, just as they agreed.  Such arbitration is also subject to Federal legislation.  So, what part of that do you not understand?

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Citizens having legal recourse, day in court, etc. is basic right when one party does not fullfill, or attempt to fullfill in earnest, terms of contract.


TM, parties also have the right to agree to alternate forms of resolution in the event of a dispute.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2011, 01:24:54 PM »
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Jimster, that makes no sense.  A 1041 is a fiduciary income tax return.  It does not entitle the underlying party to a return of "every penny that was taken out of their checks".  It also requires the person using it to have either set up a trust or to be deceased.  Don't believe everything you hear.

Makes no sense to me either...

But it's true alright...seen it with my own eyes...even have a close family member showed me how they did it...showed me the 1041...and have seen them get their money back. 

So I guess I agree it makes no sense to me either...but it's got nothing to do with what I "heard"...I seen it.  With my own eyes.

Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2011, 01:35:14 PM »
Sorry Jimster, but I've prepared 1041's for clients (been a while though).  As far as I know, there is no mechanism for return of all withheld taxes (trusts and estates pay taxes same as anyone or anything else).  Not sure what you saw, but the fed's don't return all withheld taxes just because someone sets up a trust or dies.  Just doesn't happen.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 01:51:24 PM »
ya, I wish I would not have seen it myself....still can't understand it either.  Only thing I could find on it while searching was this...

Form 1041
 

You won't want to self-assess yourself because you don't owe the IRS any income tax to begin with. However, Mr. McLeod says if you do file an income tax return then you should file Form 1041, which is an income tax form used for trusts. His position is that we are all treated as a trust in the social security/IRS scheme of things. He says they created a trust out of our name when we got a social security number. The trust bore our name spelled in all capital letters (i.e. the "strawman") and they assigned the SSN to the trust. When you use the Form 1041 to file as the fiduciary of the "trust" you end up not paying any income tax. That's because the fiduciary of a trust always gets back all the income tax withheld from the "strawman's" earnings. So, with the Form 1041 it ends up being the same thing as when you don't self-assess yourself; you don't owe the IRS a thing.

Anyways...although I did see this from someone I work with.....I definitely seen it from a family member who is a close family member. 

Strangest thing I ever saw...and the IRS HELPED him...which was mind boggling to me.

I would never try it... :o....but it's true...not sure how long before they get in trouble...but the fact is the IRS had their money...and sent it back.

All I got out of talking to my family member was something about a strawman..I have no idea what they were talking about, or what the above is talking about.


Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 02:11:24 PM »
Jimster, all I can say is that someone will be going to jail. 
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Offline jimster

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 02:14:16 PM »
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Jimster, all I can say is that someone will be going to jail. 


Probably right!  Although the IRS will be looking pretty stupid having the money and sending it back.  Cause they had it...and helped them fill out their own forms...LOL!  One of the guys even took the name of the IRS person who helped them...maybe they will go to jail too.. :D

Strange things these days.

Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 06:03:52 AM »
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Casull,,,,you saying people consciously enter into contracts that are unfair to themselves??...


What I am saying is that people who want something enough, will agree to unfavorable terms to get it.  Happens every day, yes and on a conscious level.  Do you really not understand that?  BTW, I try not to use touchy feely terms like "unfair", "fair", etc.

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Read the decision in post #1. You are having a right, or process, taken away


NO, the right or process was not taken away, but rather voluntarily contracted away.  People have the right to make bad deals, just as they have the right to make good deals.
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Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 06:18:13 AM »
Sorry TM, but I was trained in, and understand, concepts of due process, law and precedent, NOT your interpretations of what they are/should be.
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Online Casull

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Re: Roberts and Alito again...ensuring Corporatocracy
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 08:05:09 AM »
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I see. That just might be your problem. 



TM, looks like it is YOUR problem.  Case law and the SCOTUS disagree with you.
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