Please explain this "recoil thing." .50-90 Sharps

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,
 
   At the last few gunshows I've been to, I've seen the nice reproduction .50-90 Sharps rifles, and one of the Winchester 1885's made by Miruko in .50-95.     In researching these on the net, I see folks saying time and time again that the recoil of these rifles is "punishing,"  "unacceptable,"  or "brutal."
 
   OK, so here is what I don't understand.  Almost every muzzleloader hunter I know (myself included), can easily sit at a bench in an afternoon and fire 25 to 50 rounds through their .50 caliber Hawken etc., using a 90 grain load, with no real ill effects.   I'm not saying there's no recoil, but nobody I know would call it brutal or unacceptable.  Heck, its almost impossible to find anyone who uses less than 90 grains in their hunting loads anymore.
 
  So, what gives?  Are the people who are posting these comments primarily long range target shooters (600 yards etc.), who are use to shooting .45-70s etc?  I note that companies like Shiloh Sharps don't make the .50 caliber pieces, except for special order.
 
   Or, is there something fundamentally different about shooting 90 grains of blackpowder in a cartridge, instead of loose packed in a muzzleloader, that creates more felt recoil?
 
  Thanks for any info.
 
Mannyrock
 
   
 

[mannyrock]

 
  Ooops.  I think I see why!
 
   The Sharp cartridge is loaded with a 500 grain lead  bullet!  (Most muzzloaders are shooting a 325 grain bullet or less.)
 
   Anybody have a recoil table, showing the recoil for these Sharps or the .50-95 Winchester?
 
Thanks, Mannyrock

[Flynmoose]

My right shoulder aches just to read about that load!
FM

[BBF]

There are recoil calculator available on-line.
They are simple to use requiring:
 
Weight of rifle
 ""        of projectile
 ""        of powder charge
            Muzzle Vel.
The calculator will also give the speed of the free recoil which will be a definite factor how you perceive the "kick".
Part of the calculation formula involves the speed of the ejected gas. I would guesstimate that blackpowder gas travels slower and definitely has less pressure then the jet produced by smokeless.
 
I've loaded the 45-70 with BP equivalent and Smokeless. There is no way I can get the same amount of Velocity with BP as with smokeless.
The original loading of 70 gr.(volume) with a 405 gr or 500 gr cast bullet is not pleasant to shoot but still is less then a top mid level load(27 000 CUP range)  with smokeless powder and a jacketed bullet.
 
If you have the chance to shoot a factory load 450 Marlin you will get an inkling what the recoil of those cartridges you mention will be like.

[quickdtoo]

Here's a couple recoil calculators and some comparison data.

Tim

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[Ranch13]

A 50-90 case will hold somewhere between 90 and 110 grs of powder, depending on what bullet and how deep you seat it.
 Depending on the the twist of the rifle it'll use anywhere from a 473 gr bullet to 750 grs.
The original load was about 105 grs of powder and the 473 gr patched bullet.
 I've shot a few 50-90's and the worst part of the recoil is the way the thing will torgue into your cheek.
 I know a couple of guys that shoot the big 50 in competition, but the thing wears them down pretty bad by the end of the day.

[Brithunter]

While I have shot a Sharps in any chambering or the 45-90 or 50-90 I used to shoot a nice original sporting rifle in 577/450. I tried where possible to duplicate the original load so was hooting a 480 Grain PP lead bullet over 85 grains Black Powder. This load seemed to shoot the the sights at least out to 200 yards.


  Sure it had recoil as the Swinburns paten Martini sporting rifle was trim and not very heavy. The deep and fairly wide butt stock with red slivers pad on helped some with dealing with the recoil but the stock was meant for hunting not prone target work and was much better shot sitting or standing.


That is one rifle I regret letting go  .

[Nobade]

While not a big deal for hunting, the effects of recoil are cumulative. After a whole day shooting, I sure would rather be behind a 45 than a 50. In addition, for long range creedmoor type shooting, depending on the barrel twist rate, you're looking at a 700-800gr. bullet in the 50 versus a 550gr. in the 45 to get the same effect. So more recoil, lots more lead and powder used, to produce the same ballistics and in a rifle that is a lot harder to shoot accurately due to the torque reaction.

But for a hunting rifle they work great! Lots of power and put game down right now. And your comparison to a muzzle loader is valid to a point. I have a Ruger 77/50 that I occasionally take out to play with. It shoots a 525gr. smooth sided paper patched bullet over 100gr. FFg. It weighs about 5 1/2 lb, and kicks violently. I can stand to shoot it maybe 20 times in a day but by that time it is a real workout. But it sure will fold up a deer, which is what it's made for - not long range match shooting!

[keith44]

Well, mannyrock, I'm gonna throw water on your bullet weight theory, and the velocity theory.   My .45-70 weighs about 7 pounds.  I loaded up some BP loads with 67 grains of 3F Goex and a 300 grain cast bullet(velocity 1,370 fps).  This load is what I'd call a stomper load, on both ends of the rifle.  In contrast my 9 pound .54 cal muzzleloader loaded with 90 grains of 2F goex and a 430 grain maxiball (velocity 1,380 fps). The load from the muzzleloader is very pleasant to shoot, and felt recoil is about like a .410 shotgun.  The weight difference of the two guns is 2 pounds.  The pressures developed show (from my Lyman Black Powder Handbook) the .54 load develops 16,750 psi, while the 45-70 load develops 10,000 psi.


So why does a BP cartridge develop more felt recoil than a muzzleloader?  I'm guessing stock design and gun weight play heavily in this question.