C & B revolvers - use of wads under ball - other materials besides felt????

[bedbugbilly]

At the present, I shoot Navy caliber (.36) C & B revolvers - '51 & '61 Colt Navy, '58 Remington Navy & '62 Colt Pocket Police.  I've always used the felt wad on top of the powder and under the ball and then seal the top of the chamber with an appropriate lube.  On one of the boards, I saw a post where a fellow used spacer wads he had made out of leather.  It got me to wondering if there are any shooters out there that use something different besides the "felt" spacer wad?  First of all, it would/should be something "natural" that will not mess up the cylinders or the bore.  I know, I know . . . felt spacer wads are cheap in quantities.  I cast my own balls and it doesn't take long to use a drill press and a wad cutter to make a couple of hundred wads.  I do leather work as a hobby (holsters, etc.) and have scraps of cowhide that would be around an 1/8" thick.  Does anyone see a problem with using leather - possibly melting something like Crisco and soaking then in that as a lube?  Or perhaps a heavy cardboard (1/8') and cutting wads from that and soaking them in melted Crisco?  Something similiar to cardboard over the powder or shot card - I used to use one of these cardboard wads over the powder before I loaded a patched ball in my .62 smoothbore flintlock Fusil de Chasse as it seemed to improve the accuracy.  It seems like a leather spacer wad would expel from the pistol the same as a felt wad and perform the same function of sealing the chamber between the powder and ball.  Any opinions out there?  Pros or cons?  Something I'm not seeing or possible drawbacks.  Many thanks!   

[FourBee]

bedbugbilly ;   I use commercial felt or wool wads cause I don't shoot all that much.   But I don't see any problems using leather or cardboard spacers.   They use plastic now in shotgun shells in place of the old cardboard type spacers.   And lot of C&B shooters use fillers of ~ well; you name it, it all goes out the barrel.  

[mechanic]

I buy felt at the fabric store in sheets, kinda' semi hard.  I cut it with hole punches to size.  If you want, you can lube one side lightly with bore butter before cutting.  Leave the powder side dry.  Works for me.

Ben

[coyotejoe]

I've cut and shot a lot of 1/8" leather wads soaked in melted deer tallow. They work just fine and leather is much easier to cut than cardboard. Lately I've been buying Circle Fly fiber wads. They make them in .380" and .455" diameters, 3/8 and 1/2" thickness. I get the 1/2" and split them in half since 1/4" seems just right for the loads I shoot, giving good powder compression with the ball just below the chamber mouth. For lube I spread Crisco on a board and just roll the wads over it. Fiber wads will fall apart if saturated with a liquid lube but a little on the surface is all that is needed. I have wad punches in both .36 and .45 calibers and I've worked out a drill press fast production method but when I can get 1,000 wads for eight bucks it just isn't worth my time to cut them.

[curator]

Thick leather works good. I have used "card" wads and they work OK too. Lightly lubed felt is very good bu tthe best over all for accuracy and clean bore is about 15-20 grains measure of old fashioned cream of wheat filler. Yes, you have to reduce the powder charge slightly and measure the filler carefully or get a high-ball. But the compressed cereal behind the ball makes the powder burn more efficiently, promotes accuracy, and cleans the barrel at the same time. It is also very economical as compared to buying the wads.

[Cornbelt]

Just curious Curator, but do you still need to grease the cyl  with your cream of wheat loads?

[curator]

When the balls are properly seated slightly below the face of the cylinder I always smear 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube into the recess. This helps to keep the cylinder pin from getting stiff with fouling since the lube does splatter some. I also suspect it assists in the ball centering in the barrel's forcing cone as there is a slight but notable increase in accuracy when applied compared to doing without. The trick is getting the ball into the proper position so there is enough lube to work without having too much and lube-purging which usually causes fliers.

[Gatofeo]

I prefer felt because it's sponge-like and holds a lot of lube.
I have some old Alcan 12-gauge fiber wads, which I've often wondered if they'd work, if soaked in melted lubricant. But I have so much hard felt from Duro-Felt, that I haven't felt the need to experiment.
I've read that the old, patched-ball rifle shooters of centuries ago sometimes used thin leather, instead of cloth patches. Seems to me it would work fine.
I pretty much use hard, wool felt because I have so much of it, and it's easily found. Seems to me that leather wouldn't hold as much lubricant. But just how much lubricant is needed for a barrel 8 inches or less, I don't know.
My recovered wads are still slightly greasy but nearly exhausted of lubricant. I suspect a lot of that lubricant squirts out between the pressure of the powder charge, and the ball. This isn't wasted, though, as the sprayed-out lube definitely keeps moving parts lubricated.
In my .36 Navy, with grease over the ball (usually CVA Grease Patch) I find that the last three inches of the bore (from the muzzle back) are fouled. When I use a greased felt wad, the entire bore is relatively free of fouling.
This alone led me to sing the praises of greased, felt wads. Incidentally, the earliest written reference I've found to using greased felt wads in cap and ball revolvers goes back to a 1929 American Rifleman. I've never found any reference from the 19th century advising their use in cap and ball revolvers.
Wonder how far back the practice goes?

[Cleburne]

When loading black powder .45 Colt cartridges for cowboy action shooting, I've used wads cut from waxed juice carton material. Work just fine. Am assuming the same could be used as over the powder wads in C&B revolvers, though I've never used them or any kind of over the powder wad. I've preferred to apply lube over the ball.

Cleburne

[gcrank1]

I set up a small flask/spout to put the right amount of COW over the powder charge, thus quick and easy to load. I seat the ball deep enough to get the soft lube (currently TC Bore Butter) well over the nose.
After 6 shots I run a damp mop down bore and out just once.
BTW, I lube the cylinder pin with the soft lube too before starting. It gets stiff to rotate after two cyl full so a drop and spritzer bottle spray down,wipe,and relube and it's ready to go again.

[Cleburne]

Gcrank1, sounds like you and I use the same process except for the COW. I have used it as a filler in .45 Colt cartridges when trying to conserve my supply of black powder, but I don't want to carry a second flask to do so with cap & ball. Sure can smell the difference when the air fills with cooked Cream of Wheat.   

The lube I've used most often with my C&B six guns is simple white lithium grease, purchased by the can, at a local auto parts store. Put a dab on the cylinder pin prior to shooting, and over the balls before capping. Have seldom experienced binding, but when I have, a quick spritz of homemade moosemilk (Ballistol & water 1:10 mix) fixes the problem in short order. I've heard the warnings about using petroleum products when shooting black powder, but have had nary a problem with the pistols. No doubt using it in long guns would be a different story.

Cleburne

[gcrank1]

I'm at the point where the KISS principle is getting more important.
BTW, it is probably a good idea two use two differently styled flasks if you try it my way.

[freedom475]

I use the leather wads all the time, in about every one of my BP's...but I have not done a lot of actual data collecting or controlled testing with them. I just tried them in 45 colt BP loads in my Rem 58 witha  Kirst cylinder, and I still see fouling starting at about  2 inches from the muzzle.,,but the only lube on them was  a quick dip in neatsfoot and the boolits were lubed with smokeless lube.

I sent some to a friend to try and he tested them and returned these results..
"I just wanted to share some data with you that I obtained when comparing leather wads VS no wads. I made some leather wads from the leather that I got from you a few days ago. I punched them out using a half inch hollow punch. The rifle was a .50 cal Hatfield. I was using 50 grains of Goex fffG. My patches were .015 light denim that were lubricated with Bore Butter. I soaked the wads in Balistol and let them dry on a towel for about three days. I made five shots over a chronograph using no wad and five shots using a leather wad. The average muzzle velocity without the wad was 1289 ft/sec with a standard deviation of 21.35. When I used the wads, the average muzzle velocity was 1317 ft/sec with a standard deviation of only 7.00. This proves to me that the wads significantly improve performance."

I had fired several shots using the wads for another project prior to firing the shots to see if the wads made any difference. After 10 shots, during which loading was very easy, I ran a cleaning patch moistened with Rusty Duck cleaner down the bore and was amazed at how little gunk came out. There is no doubt that the wads improve combustion and lower fouling. After doing my test shooting, I went on a woods walk with my club and shot over 25 shots using the wads for each shot and never once needed a cleaning patch. When we finished, I started cleaning my rifle and there was more **** around the nipple than there was down the bore. I am absolutley sold on using the leather wads with the Balistol on them. My patches were lightly lubed with Bore Butter. A wonderful combination!!

[gcrank1]

I think the effect detected there is what the British had in mind with the 'bore scrubber' wads behind the bullet in their cartridges (.577 Snider and 450/577 Martini). Although in this case it scrubs on the way down, knocking the fouling on top of the powder charge and certainly aids in sealing the expanding gases behind the ball and avoiding the 'dreaded gas cutting' while increasing the back pressure, which does tend to improve the complete combustion of BP. Blank charges with only a card wad foul badly and loose charges, often used in reenactments to not have any projectile flying downrange, are even worse.
Has your friend done similar tests with the typical felt wads as a comparison to the leather?

[AtlLaw]

Has your friend done similar tests with the typical felt wads as a comparison to the leather?

I think I'll cut some 50 cal. wads from my C&B felt, lube them with Gatofeo's BP Lube and give this a try myself!  Those are some impressive improvements and what you said about "bore scrubber" wads makes sence!   

Wonder what diameter I should cut them?     .500?  .510?

[Gatofeo]

I've been cutting 1/8" thick wads for my .50-caliber, Hawken-pattern rifle for years, using the same felt I use for my cap and ball revolvers. A 1/2-inch hole cutter does the trick.
I used to lubricate these wads with Crisco or CVA Grease Patch, but began using Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant about 10 years ago. The difference was apparent: less fouling, cleaner bore, no need to run a cleaning patch down the bore every few shots.
The felt wad, greased with Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant, is seated firmly on top of the powder charge, followed by a .490 ball enclosed in a patch also lubricated with Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant.
I use Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant for all black powder applications: felt wads in rifles and revolvers, felt wads in shotguns, patches and soft lead bullets used with black powder. It's too stiff to be used as  grease for moving parts, or on a cylinder pin. For those I use CVA Grease Patch (I believe now discontinued) or a mix of olive oil and beeswax.
Incidentally, I never named the lubricant after myself. Shortly after I began posting it, singing its praises, people began calling it the Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant.

I much prefer using felt -- and real wool felt, such as that sold by Durofelt on the internet -- over any other material. Felt will hold a fair amount of lubricant, leather will not.
When it comes to black powder, I'm a firm believer in having plenty of it to keep fouling soft and moving parts slick.