Discouraged...

[Land_Owner]

...lost time, money, confidence.  What a waste. 

I went to the range yesterday after making ~300 x 150 grain WC's in .357 Mag rounds over IMR 700X powder.  At least I though so.

I got to the range and the velocity of the first 20 rounds was between 800 fps and intermittent to 1380 fps.  Went back to the powder dispenser and found a mixture of IMR 700X and Win 748.  I do not know exactly how that happened!  "Senior Moment" I am claiming.  Maybe loss of focus by a discontinuous reloading session (completed following dinner). 

The alleged contaminated rounds dispense a "sand-like" soot from the bore after firing.  Not unlike Win 748 powder that has not ignited.  Golden-brown or tan in color.  About the same size as Win 748 granules.  IMR 700X is a fast flake powder.

Only other reason these might have been "contaminated" is the NRA 50/50 lubrication in the lube grooves and possibly on the base of the cast bullets.  I wiped the excess off and they were not subjected to unreasonable heat in transport from loading bench to range.  The Handi-rifle spit them out with impunity, for which I was grateful.  I was expecting 1350 fps.

I am discouraged.  Unloading these cartridges is not on my to-do list.  After 20 rounds the range session was a waste of time, money, and my confidence is shredded.

[BUGEYE]

It's not practical for most folks, but when I loaded for 30-30, win 748 ball powder was the only thing in the house.  that stuff just measures out so good.

[shot1]

I always say check, check and re-check when hand loading.

[Graybeard]

Sounds to me like you need to review your loading procedures and for sure it is time to implement a hard and fast routine such as I have mention in the sticky note up near the top of this forum. It's The Definitive "New to Reloading" Thread by Butlerford45 started by him when he was the moderator of this forum.

Here is the contents of my post there:

This is not a completed work by any means. It's just something I worked up long ago when I "thought" I was gonna write a book but decided I really wasn't in the mood so it's an incompleted work but what's here is I think pretty good info.


Reloading Tips and Hints

THERE ARE OLD RELOADERS AND THERE ARE BOLD RELOADERS BUT THERE ARE NO OLD BOLD RELOADERS!

A good friend called me today (4-13-01) and told me this page was badly out of date. I was reminded that what I’m doing today isn’t really the same as what I was doing when I first wrote this section back about ’96 or ’97 for the first time. I really hadn’t thought too much about it until that call. I visited it today and ya know what, she was right. So I have now revised it to reflect what I’m doing now as opposed to what I was doing back then. Procedure wise I haven’t made a lot of changes since I wrote it but equipment wise I sure have.

The process of reloading one’s empty hulls to create new ammo for firing in your guns has many advantages to recommend it but it can be fraught with danger if you don’t pay close attention to detail and do things correctly. Below are a few tips and hints that I have learned in my over 30 years of reloading to make your efforts a bit safer and the ammo more consistent.

Before you buy your first piece of reloading equipment or the first supplies do yourself the biggest favor you ever can in learning to reload ammo. Buy yourself at least two reloading manuals. No, I didn’t say buy a reloading manual. I said to buy two or better yet more. I think the Lyman Manual has arguably the best reloading data section of all the manuals I own and I own a lot of manuals. Read and understand the data section and reloading how to before you even buy your first equipment and supplies. I feel the minimum number of reloading manuals you should own if you are going to reload ammo consists of the Lyman Manual, the manual by the bullet maker you plan to use most (if you plan to use more than one bullet brand then get the manuals of all you plan to use), and the manual by the maker of the powder you plan to use (if you plan to use more than one brand of powder then get the manuals by all of them). Yes, that is potentially a lot of manuals and yes I do own them and feel you should too. All the powder companies put out free brochure manuals you can get and I recommend you do so. Many of them also have online manuals you can use from your computer. There is no such thing as too many reloading manuals. When the new editions come out buy them. Using old data can get you in trouble. From time to time the manufacturers do change the characteristics of their powders and the only way to know this change has happened it to have new manuals.

Avoid distractions and load only when you are in a good mood and feeling rested. Don’t allow other people especially your wife/husband or children in the loading area while you are reloading. If others are present and talking with you sooner or later you are going to make a mistake that can prove dangerous or even deadly. Once in my early days of reloading before I learned this lesson my wife walked into the reloading room and asked me some question. I was in the process of charging .45 acp cases with Bullseye powder at the time. I was using my Powder Measure to meter the charges into the case. The interruption was enough to allow me to double charge two cases in the loading block. A double charge of Bullseye in a .45 acp case was probably enough to cause the gun to come unglued since I was already using a maximum charge.

This brings up the next tip which I had already learned at the time luckily. After dropping charges into cases in a loading block always tip the block to allow you to peer inside each case in turn using a good light source. If any of the cases don’t look the same then dump the ones that don’t look right and dispense those charges again. How did I learn that trick? I blew up a TC Contender .44 magnum barrel. Yep, I said blew it up. I was loading a mixed lot of brass using a maximum charge of W296 powder. One particular case with an S&W headstamp didn’t look right. It appeared to have too much powder. I dumped the powder and dropped another charge into it. It still didn’t look right so I weighted the powder. The charge was correct. I made the mistake of not throwing that case away right then. I loaded it and fired it later at the range. At the explosion the Pachmayer forend on the TC came off and flew about 20 feet in front of me and the barrel dropped to the open position. The barrel was bulged upward at the screw holes for the rear sight and permanently damaged. To their credit TC replaced that barrel at no charge even after I told them what happened.

That brings us to the next tip. If after you verify that the charge in the case is correct and it still doesn’t look right distort and dispose of the case so it never finds its way onto your reloading bench again. Take a pair of pliers or a vise and mash the mouth closed so you and everyone else who might ever see it knows not to use it.

I use a Hornady Lock-N-Load powder measure to dispense just about all the loads I develop. (Why the Hornady? Because it is as accurate as any I’ve tried and has the available option of the Lock-N-Load Drain Metering Insert which with the push of a button lets you remove your metering insert and install an instant drain insert to empty the powder tube with zero hassle. This feature alone puts it head and shoulders above all the others in my eyes. I also have both the Rifle and Pistol Micrometer Metering Inserts and highly recommend them over the standard metering insert that comes with the measure.) I don’t spend my time weighting powder charges into the brass. The bench rest crowd are satisfied with measured powder charges and so am I. Now some stick powders don’t meter very well throughout some measures and you may have to weight them and trickle the final charge into them. If you must then you must. I don’t even with the coarse stick powders unless I am loading a near maximum charge where a little more might be TOO MUCH more. I haven’t found the small variations that dropping charges from a measure makes a noticeable difference on the target unless you have guns that shoot sub half inch 100 yard groups. If you do then you already know more about reloading than I’m going to tell you here.

When using a measure to dispense powder I always put all my primed hulls into a properly fitted loading block. As I drop the powder charge I count the cases. When I get to the end of a row if the number I’ve counted doesn’t equal the number of cases I know the block holds I stop immediately and see what is wrong. The count continues from row to row until all the cases in the block have been charged with powder and the final count must match the number of hulls in the block. If not, I stop and recheck everything to see what is wrong. These steps can prevent you from double charging or not charging a case and loading it without power. I began the counting procedure after finding a loaded shell that didn’t have powder. I was firing an S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver using relative light charges in .38 special cases and using full wad cutter bullets. So recoil was almost non existent. I had on hearing muffs so the noise was quite muffled. I had the misfire that resulted when only the primer fired with no powder in the case. The bullet was stuck part way into the barrel and froze up the action so it couldn’t cycle to fire the next round. Just think what could have happened if the bullet had gone forward into the barrel and I hadn’t realized it. Not a pretty thought. After that I began to count every time the handle is pulled on the measure and the number has to match the number of cases in the loading block. I also implemented the procedure of peering into the cases to double check that all have one charge and only one charge in them as stated above.

I like RCBS equipment. Their warranty is as good as it gets, as is their product quality. I have damaged RCBS equipment through my own negligence and still they replace it at no charge. What more can you ask of a company? Nowadays however I am moving toward more and more Hornady reloading equipment.  I have sold my tired old RCBS JR press to a new reloader at a cheap price and am now using the Hornady Lock-N-Load Single Stage Press exclusively. I personally could do without the L-N-L feature as I don’t really ever get in a hurry with my reloading but you might find it to be the cat’s meow. It can speed up the time required to change out dies but the down side is the need for an L-N-L insert for each die. If you don’t have them then you save no time. I have probably 30 or more die sets and don’t have enough L-N-L inserts so I use them on some of the most frequently used dies and for the others I just use an insert in the press and screw the other dies in as with a conventional press. You really can have it both ways. One thing I’ve really changed on lately is the dies I use. In the past I almost always bought RCBS dies. When I got my .358 JDJ barrel SSK send Hornady dies. To be honest I was disappointed they weren’t RCBS. But then I used them and low and behold I decided I kinda liked them. The more I used them the more I liked them. The one feature I like most is the bullet seater die. It is easily adjustable without a wrench unlike most as it comes from the factory but if you’ll get the optional MicroJust Seating Stem you have the best seating die I’ve run across. It is my favorite of them all and I hate to seat bullets without it these days.  Now when I get a gun in a caliber that is new to me and I don’t have a set of dies already on hand for it the first thing I do is get on the phone and order me up a set of Hornady dies for it. There are other good companies in the business but I have come to trust and rely on  Hornady and RCBS for most of my reloading equipment above all others. One exception to this is the Lee Auto Prime tool. In my opinion this is the best of the tools available for the job of priming cases. I haven’t put a primer in a case without using the handy little Lee Auto Prime in over 20 years. This one is a keeper folks. Now I’ll admit I haven’t tried the new Hornady or RCBS tools now on the market that do this function similarly to the Lee Tool. To be honest I just don’t like the looks of the RCBS and ain’t gonna try it probably because of it. I don’t like the idea of the strips the primers go in either. I like a tray I can just dump 100 primers in, jiggle them around a bit to get them all correctly oriented and start priming. Now just looking at the photos of the Hornady tool it looks like it just might do this as well as the Lee with the added benefit of not requiring the special shell holders. This one I need to try so I can report on it. Before I leave this subject let me mention a pet peeve of mine and that is the size of the trays primers come in these days. Most of them look like they are trying to prevent shop lifting by making the trays too big to hide and get out of the store. I use and recommend mostly CCI primers because they haven’t fallen for the oversize tray yet. I can easily dump 100 primers from their trays into the Lee Auto Prime tool or any other standard size primer flipper tray without spilling any. Can’t do that with most of the others and Federal is the worst offender. Now I’m not saying one brand of primers is superior to another. Nope I really haven’t noticed any real different in the primers themselves. All are really good. I make my decision on which to buy based on the packaging and what’s available to me locally. I can usually find Winchester everywhere, Federal in some places and CCI in most places. The others are hardly ever seen in my area.

Since I’ve talked about primers lets talk bullets a minute. A long long time ago when I first started reloading there was one and only one place to buy reloading components or equipment locally. Mr. CC Gauldin’s shop was that place. CC carried Hornady bullets, Pacific reloading presses, Remington guns and primers and Hercules (Alliant), Dupont (IMR) and Hodgdon powders. How I ended up with a MEC shotshell press and RCBS centerfire press I don’t even remember but I had to have gone elsewhere to get them. Bullets I always bought there and that meant Hornady as that was all he had. Ya know it wasn’t a handicap at all. They worked! And still do. I’ve probably loaded and shot more Hornady bullets than all other jacketed bullets put together, partly because of that early start and partly because I find them to be competitively priced, accurate and they work when the bullet hits the game. I’ve probably used fewer Speer bullets than any other. Not because there is anything wrong with them but just that hardly anyone locally carries them and so I just don’t see them that often. I sure do like their TNT varmint bullets however. I’ve used a lot of Noslers and still do. I like them a lot too. Sierra bullets are probably second behind Hornady in the number I’ve used. Of them all I can honestly say that when I used a bullet for the job for which the manufacturer intended it to be used I never had what I’d call a bullet failure with any of the brands.

If you are going to reload centerfire ammo you really need to clean the cases. For a more professional look to your loaded ammo you should also polish them. There are several ways to do this. IOSSO makes a kit with a liquid for the purpose for those who deal in real small quantities and don’t want to get a tumbler. If you reload  a lot thought I’d suggest a case tumbler and these days that almost automatically means a vibratory tumbler. I have two I use. The older one is a Midway which is filled with walnut media with red rouge polish. I use it for the initial cleaning and polishing of really dirty cases, especially those fired with cast bullets. The other is a Hornady  which I don’t see in their latest catalog so I’m not sure if it is still in production. In it I have corn cob media without rouge. When I size a case using the spray lube which is the only kind I do use, I then toss it in the Hornady tumbler for the corn cob to remove the lube for me. I end up with good clean cases that look like new and are easier to load and work with.

I’ll add more later but for now I’ll close by saying that as time rolls along I seem to try more new products and often find that I like them even better than some of the old tried and true stuff. Don’t always mean one is better but it does mean that what I’m using today is what I find the most favor with right now. You too will no doubt find your preferences will change from time to time as you try new products or brands.
Reloading Equipment List



What equipment is needed to do your reloading is dependent on the stage you are in your reloading career. A beginner just starting out can get by with a minimum of equipment and still turn out some good quality and usable ammo. But as you progress in your reloading hobby you will find that more and more equipment items become absolutely necessary to your happiness. This listing will take that into consideration and therefore has a first section listing the absolute minimum equipment needed by a beginner and then follow on lists to add as you progress in your loading career. If you are to the stage that you are using straight line arbor presses and bench rest techniques then you are way too far along to need my help and I won’t get into that aspect of reloading. I could probably take a few lessons from you if you are a bench rest shooter.

The beginner’s list:

-Two or more reloading manuals
-Loading bench or somewhere solid to mount press
-Press
-Dies and shell holder
-Scale
-Powder dippers or better a powder measure
-Deburring tool
-Lube pad with lube or better spray lube
-Dial caliper

That is a real bare bones list but it should get anyone started reloading their own ammo. It won’t see you through for long before you want/need to start adding more items but it does contain everything needed to make those first few shells.


After you have been reloading for awhile you are going to find the items in the beginner’s list just don’t answer all your reloading needs. If you are reloading bottle necked cases you will find they tend to grow in length and will need to be trimmed periodically. You will add calibers to the list you load for and will need to add more die sets and shell holders. You will want to speed up the process and to make it easier. When this happens you are ready to move on to the next stage and will then need:


The intermediate list:

-Case trimmer with shell holders and pilots
-Vibratory case cleaner
-Media separation equipment
-Primer pocket cleaning tool
-Case mouth cleaning brushes
-Digital scale—if you didn’t start with one
-Scale check weight set
-Powder trickler
-Stuck case removing tool
-Primer pocket swaging tool---if you use military brass
-Flash hole uniformer
-Primer pocket uniformer
-Powder measure— if you didn’t start with one
-Bins and trays of assorted sizes
-Loading blocks
-Inertia bullet puller
-Data log for reloading records


After getting all of the above items you are a pretty well equipped reloader and should by now have a good bit of reloading experience under your belt. You are now ready to branch out into new areas and expand your reloading knowledge base and experience and are wanting to work up the best and most accurate reloads you can for a multitude of calibers.  Good for you. You are now ready for:

The advanced list:

-Storage cabinet and/or shelves
-RCBS Trim Pro Case Prep Center
-Stoney Point OAL Gauge
-Bullet Comparator
- Power Case Trimmer
-Chronograph
-Ballistics software program
-Progressive reloading press



The above lists aren’t intended to be all encompassing.  There is always another gadget or tool that you’ll see and just can’t live without. Are you ready now to begin making your own bullets? If so most folks start out by casting bullets. To do this you will need the items on:

The bullet caster’s list:

-Melting pot
-Bullet molds and handles
-Lubricator/sizer
-Sizer dies and top punches
-Leather gloves
-Safety glasses or face shield
-Mold knocker
-Ingot mold
-Ladle or spoon to stir the mix
-Flux
-Bullet alloy
-Bullet lube
-Gas checks if bullet requires

[tunnug]

You don't mention if this is the first time for loading that particular load or how long you have been loading, the following is what I usually do when starting a load never tried before.
First of all you're very lucky the mixture didn't have dire consequences, I myself have mixed two powders by mistake by having two different bottles out, I caught it before using and ended pouring it on my plants (good fertilizer) even if it hurt some in the wallet it's better than the alternative.
I always start by loading 20-30 rounds up to 50 rounds depending on what/how I'll be using them to see how they do, sometimes less.
If something is not right I'll stop and dis-assemble the rounds to see what the problem is, by starting small this won't take too long and I won't have wasted too much time.
Don't be discouraged, jump in again and learn from your mistakes, safe shooting. 

[CherokeeT]

Beside making sure you only have one powder out and its the one you want to load, make sure you have no residual powder left in the measure.    I would also check my supplies of 700 and 748 to make sure neither of them is mixed.   Glad you did not have any problems other than poor performance.

[cwlongshot]

I admit not reading the long post, but I can imagion its contence... If I repeat, its because its important..

This is a wake up call and should (I am sure will be ) used as a learning experience...

Look back to the basics of loading...

ONE powder on the bench at one time.
ONE brand, size and type of primer.
ONE brand, weight and caliber Bullet on the bench at one time.

NO DISTRACTIONS, Don't load when stressed, or tired.

Think about what your doing, if you cannot do these things, leave and return when you can devote the required interest and respect.

I am VERY GLAD nothing bad happened, you do realize you are very lucky.

Not to kick you when your down, but why are you loading wad cutters in mag cases anyhow? Maybe you do not realize, if you do, no disrespect meant... The bullet is designed to work with the 38 spl case, to reduce case capacity making the tiny charges of fast powder safer. Loading them in the longer mag case defeats these safety precautions. It can and has been done and isn't the worst thing you can do, but maybe not the smartest..  I can only assume your trying to reduce the extra 1/10" of bullet jump from the mag chamber... IMHO its safer to buy a nice 38 spl and shoot these loads in that..

Just my 2cents. Again, I am glad to read you and no one else was hurt.

CW

[Land_Owner]

I agree.  My reloading procedure got a Gut Check.  This was a "Wake Up call".   Twenty-two (22) years of reloading and I am older, generally wiser, but in this instance, I got flagged. 

Mistakes occur.  See any recent Shooting Times, Guns and Ammo, NRA Hunter, or NRA Riflemen magazine for multiple ammunition recalls from the professionals.

I have reflected to check my procedure and it was the next day when the powder mixing occurred.  I had not finished the day before, left 700X in the measure, started again in the morning and when depleted, thinking ahead to the 30-30 rounds that were next, a BAD PROCEDURE, I took out the Win 748 and mixed the two.  Just that simple - a mental lapse precipitated by loading an incomplete single session.

I had also not left the 700X powder canister on the loading table.  That too is a BAD PROCEDURE.  It should have remained on the table as a visual reminder of what was should be poured.

So I have a course correction to make for going forward.  SAFETY FIRST.  I appreciate all of the input for further consideration.

[BBF]

There are a lot of worse mixes or mistakes to make, like loading that one into a 30-30 

[LaOtto222]

I have lots of different powders on hand. So to keep from mixing it up, I have just one powder on the bench at a time. I leave the container on the bench. If I can not finish a loading session, I empty the Charge Master 1500 into the jug and leave it on the bench. It is really simple to set up the Charge Master the next day or next week, but I leave the powder I am using on the bench. When I charge the case with powder, I seat a bullet while the next one is being weighed out. After the bullet has been seated, I drop it into an ammo box. Before I start, I fill out a load card that is put into the ammo box. My memory is not as good as it used to be, the load card and the visual of the powder jug, keep me straight. I set the bench up the same way each time I load. It really does not matter what I load, I set it up the same way, just different components. I do the same thing when I prime cases. I leave the primer box on the bench. I do 100 at a time. When the first 100 is primed, I get out a new box and throw away the old one. When I am done priming or done for that session, the remainder is emptied back into the box on the bench and put back into it's storage place.

I am the 5S leader for our plant. Staying organized is very important to stop mistakes and be efficient. Just like work, you need a system to perform the same job over and over. After you develop a routine, when you do some thing out of sequence, it just does not feel right so you can back check your work.

It sounds like you have already taken steps to fool proof your loading sessions.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[spinafish]

apparantly, the pros do make mistakes..have you noticed all the Remington(and other branded products under their umbrella) recalls in the magazines?  from ammo to rifles!

[Doublebass73]

I'm glad you didn't get hurt. Here is a good quote from CW -

NO DISTRACTIONS, Don't load when stressed, or tired.

I'm a fairly new reloader and made my first big goof about  month ago due to loading ammo while tired. A guy I know in town does commercial bullet casting and gave me free samples of his .452 250 grain RNFP to try out. I wanted to try all the powders I have on hand to come up with a standard pressure factory duplicate load of the .45 Colt so I can practice all summer long with my T/C Contender handgun.

I hand weighed all the charges of every powder I have in groups of 3. I weighed standard pressure charges of Unique, 2400, Trail Boss, IMR-4227, IMR PB and Bullseye. I did follow the rule of only one powder on the bench at a time but I can't believe what I ended up doing.

I got to the range and fired 3 shot groups of each different powder. Everything was fine until I got to the last 3 loads which I used 7.0 grains of Bullseye. The 1st shot went off fine. When I touched off the 2nd round the recoil and noise was much greater than the 1st load. I opened the breach and the case was stuck, I had to pry it out with a screwdriver. I checked the primer and it was flattened. I didn't fire the last one, I went home and checked the case. Sure enough the case was empty, I double charged the 2nd round with 14.0 grains of Bullseye!!  Luckily I was shooting a Contender and not an SAA. This was my wake up call.

From now on I will only reload when I'm wide awake. The scary part is I always check inside the cases after I charge them and I even remember looking inside the Bullseye charged cases but because it was late and I was tired I somehow missed it. Big lesson learned on my part.

[45-70.gov]

thanks  for reminding  us  that  none of us are too good to let our guard down

i got  slack  last week  and left a keg  of powder out of place

i  know   my bench  and room are a mess......but  i take my powder handling/storage serious

and  now  even  more so

[greenrivers]

Landowner, really glad to hear that you were not hurt with the mistake. And thank you for the reminder that all of us are not infalible. There are not enough of us to pass on this great sport of shooting and we cannot afford to lose a valuable member!
A key word used above was respect. It should follow through from the handling of firearms to all aspects of equipment. I have had two incidents myself. One very similiar to yours where I had two powders out and was not sure which had been used. Hated opening up and dumping all that powder, but!!!! I have a hard and fast rule for both the reloading bench and the motorcycle. If I do not feel clear minded enough, they do not get used.

[Land_Owner]

greenrivers...you can count me out on the motorcycle riding.  That is a story for another day.  Not to hijack my own thread, remind me sometime and I will clarify.

Good reminder: "respect".  This entire post could have had a different tone than the "sad sack" of just being "Discouraged..."  I am truly grateful.

This is my first WTH reloading session.  I have had a squib load, a primer only load, no primer in the loaded case load, squashed case-side loads, shaved boolit in case loads, too little powder loads, but never have I had a HOT load or a DESTRUCTIVE load. 

Most of my reloading "anomalies" were easily rectified immediately at the loading bench.  Some were noticed later than others in the reloading session and rounds had to be pulled apart.  Most were just reloaded in a different or new case and life went on.

I still have ten fingers and toes, both eyes, a head of gray hair, a clean forehead and nose as my avatar will attest...I was very lucky.  Mixing components, especially inadvertently, can have devastating consequences. 

I will be more respectful going forward.