40/70bn 2.1 won't shoot

[Steves]

Need some help, I have a Sharps 2.1 (Shiloh) bn That I can't get to shoot worth a hoot. Best I can get is 2 1/2 inch group at 100 yards....   I need to get a good set of sights but was wondering if I'd be better off just having it rebarreled to something better like a 45/70 or something bigger. I have a Marlin lever gun that shoots 1" groups at 100 yards. The Sharps has the short neck so I'm limited to the type of bullet (Snover) I can use. I also have a problem with it fouling, have to clean it about every 3rd shot to get the cartridge to chamber(pain in the a$$) Any Sugestions? ...Steve s.

[Lead pot]

Steves.
That .40-70 BN 2.1 are you sure it's not a .40-70 BN 2-1/4? tell me a little more how you load that cartrige.(primer- powder-compresion-droptubing)just tell me what you do. The .40-70 bn is a good shooter,but takes a little load development.
There was a chambering that Shiloh chambered when Wolf had Shiloh.Dan Pharis,I think was his name, developed this case by necking a .45-70 case down to .40 and called it the .40-70 government that was a .40-70 .1 BN. if it is it's a good chance it has (so called a paper patch throat by some) if it has It will be a little harder to find a bullet that will perform in it.It might be easer to take it to Shiloh and have Kirk rechamber it to a .40-70 BN 2.25.The early Shiloh when Wolf had Shiloh that "throat"chamber was common Steves.
I have .40 caliber PP swaging dies on order and I will use PP in my .40-70 SS 2.5 If you like I will send you some to try and see how you get allong with that bullet. If it is what the rifle gets allong with it,ask Veral or a nother mould maker for a mould.Make sure to slug the bore and make a finnished patch bullet that is bore size.
Kurt

[Steves]

Lead pot, It's 45/70 necked down. I use a drop tube and Fed mag primers. I don't compress much because I found I get better groups if I don't. I use A Snover 405 grain bullet with 2 grease grooves showing. Have to with the short neck to keep the base in the neck. My rifle is an old one made back in the 80's. It has a 25 inch barrel...Steve s.

[Lead pot]

Steves>If you can get two grooves showing in the barrel your throat is long.Change one component at a time,try a getting rid of the mag primer first,my .40-70 does best with a Fed GM210M primer.try different compression with my load for the .40 it needs .375 compression. you just have to work up a load it likes.I have a Browning BPCR in .45-70 I just about pulled out what little hair I have left gefore I found the right combo for that beast.I ended up with a 560 gr creedmore at 1/40 alloy 2f goex compressed .300 with a 210 M fed primer with winchester cases.

Steves if you cant find a load give Shiloh a call or go to there web site.Kirk will work with you If you want to rechamber that rifle.

Kurt

[ShortStake]

Steve,

Am curious about your .40-70BN designation?

The standard .40-70 Sharps Bottleneck is NOT formed from .45-70 brass.

Maybe that is why your case is 2.1 inches long?

What is the ACTUAL length of your rifle's CHAMBER?  Is it 2.1 or 2.25 inches?

My supposition is that your rifle is equipped with a 2.25 inch chamber and the necked down (2.1) .45-70 cases are too short for the intended purpose.

If you have .15 air gap between the end of your brass and the end of the chamber on the .40-70BN a considerable amount of caked up black powder residue will make for an accuracy killing situation.

Seating the bullet out in a 2.1 long case to (supposedly) fill the 2.25 chamber does nothing to eliminate the air gap existing between the brass and end of the chamber.

If by chance the logic is this rifle is LONG throated, I don't believe that is the case.

Your bullet choice may be a little on the light weight side.  What is the twist?

Tell us more.

[Lead pot]

Windcutter could be right with the case.The .40-2.25 is the same case head as the .45 basic what case is formed from.If that is the case you can solve the problem by making a chamber cast to see for sure.
I dont know when Dan Pharis designed the case for the 2.1 by just shortning the neck or resigned the whole case.

Kurt

[ShortStake]

LP,

The .40-70 Government) BN case designed by Dan Phariss is illustrated in SPG's Reloading Primer.

The .40-70 (Government) BN has no basis in history and was designed by Phariss to allow it being made from standard length .45-70 (2.1") cases.

The case NECK is the same length as a standard .40-70 Sharps (2.25")BN.  The shortened case length comes about by reduction in the case height between the bottleneck's rear shoulder and the rim.  This shortened case length reduced the case capacity to about 65 grains of black powder.

As to whether or not Shiloh ever chambered this round as an offering to the public is an unknown?  Maybe someone else can chime in on this subject?

[Sharps74]

Steves,
The 40/70 2.1 is a bugger to make shoot, after finding a bullet short enough to load correctly, the rifling twist becomes a major factor.
Most of the rifles chambered for this cartridge were marked as such, if on top of the barrel, it is probably also marked C.Sharps Arms (distributor for Shiloh in the early 80's). If not, remove the forearm, it will give serial number and caliber designation there, also possibly a wolfhead stamping if Wolfgang himself worked on the rifle.
I have owned a coulple of these over the years, if it has the infamous "Paper Patch" or "Freebore" chamber as some call it, which I would bet it has, my suggestion would be to rebarrel as Shiloh will rebarrel these for half price. I beleive they get $450.00 for a standard rebarrel job, so half would be $225.00. You will spend more that that getting the 2.1" to shoot for you, not to mention the loss of hair.  Stay with a caliber that uses the 45/70 head/extractor (40/50BN, 40/70BN (2.4), 40/90BN, 45/70-90-100-110) and you will have no other expense unless you change barrel weight (new forearm). You can also sell the 2.1" barrel and recover some of your rebarrel cost.
I have asked Shiloh in the past if they can punch this chamber out to 2 1/4" or 2 5/8" Bottleneck. They do not recommend it.

[ShortStake]

Steves and other interested persons,

Have been in communication with Dan Phariss the originator of the so called .40-70 "GOVERNMENT" BN cartridge.

Dan Phariss' quote follows:
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" The 40-2.1 started on in C. Sharps Arms Custom Shop when one of the gunsmiths ran a .45-70 case into the 40-2 1/4" die, John Schofftahl wanted a 40 that would use chaep brass.  Shiloh chambered for this for a few years but since it had a very short neck it was hard to use with heavy cast bullets.  I designed the 40-2.1" "Improved" (what I put on the reamer print) while working at Shilohs custom shop.  After that reamer arrived all the 40-2.1" Shilohs were the later design.  When Steve (Garbe) and Mike (Venturino) wrote the BP Primer they decided to call it the 40 Gov't.  I have owned a rifle in the original 2.1" style and did not like it much.  The longer neck (and shorter bodied) version is a better cartridge.  I like the 40 2 1/4 a lot.

Any of these three should shoot well but the non-improved 2.1 needs a bullet with short driving bands to work best.

I just dug out the original Clymer spec sheet for teh 40-2.1" Improved dated 2-7-89.  40-2.1's made prior to this date would have been the short necked version.  Sorry I don't know what the Shiloh serial number range would have been.

The original 40-2.1 was done up about 1980 or by a guy whose name escapes me.

Dan"
************************************************************

Now you know the 40-2.1" story from the beginning.    

Looks like a CerroSafe Chamber Cast is the order of business to settle the actual chamber dimension question.

[Lead pot]

Thank you Windcutter for the follow up on this topic.I have an intrest in the .40 BN  caliber for my next sharps.

Kurt

[Chaz]

Steves,

Theirs a interesting thread on the Black Powder Silhouette group(the other one) called primers for BP. Vry interesting test done on a bottle neck cartridge. Could be helpful.Chaz