Ames 3 or 4 Pounder

[rampa room artillery]

I am looking for plans and or dimensions of the Ames 3 or 4 Pounder does anyone have them??

rick bryan
3rd va co B

[cannonmn]

I've inspected a few of the Ames 3-pounder guns.  I've found at least two very different outer dimensions within the original 1850's Ames-produced guns.  To me, it is obvious that the Ames 3-pounder is the same as one or another of the US 6-pounder bronze guns of the 1830's or 1841, simply scaled down.  It seemed to me that the customer could order the gun in about any size they wanted, but as far as bore sizes, I've only seen several three pounder, and one possible four-pounder, with one remarkable exception-I've seen a fantastic pair of one-pounder (my designation) Ames miniature 6-pounders in the US Naval Academy Museum.  They'd be near the top of my fantasy shopping list for when the US Government goes broke and starts selling off its museum artifacts.

I do have some weights and dimensions I took down for the one the Smithsonian once had (they seem to have lost it since I photographed it and took notes in mid-1980's) and one in a private collection.  However I'd feel 100% safe in scaling down the M1841 US bronze 6-pounder to the 3-pounder size.  Since Ames definitely made various scalings of that gun themselves, how could you go wrong?

The Smithsonian gun fit perfectly on a US 12-pounder Prairie carriage, which it was mounted on when I photographed it.  One I have some details on in a private collection is a bit larger and heavier.

If anyone has found any kind of historical documentation on the Ames 3-pounders, I'd like to see it, I'm planning to do an article on them sometime in the future.

[Cannoneer]

I am looking for plans and or dimensions of the Ames 3 or 4 Pounder does anyone have them??

rick bryan
3rd va co B

 Marshall Steen's company manufactures a reproduction, they would have plans.

[cannonmn]

Here are some notes taken in the Smithsonian's History and Technology Building on November 22, 1986, from the Ames 3-pounder that they have since lost:

Marks:  Breechface, lower:  278 (weight)

Left trunnion:  1853 

Right trunnion:  Ames Co., Founders, Chicopee, Mass

Bore Dia:  3 in.

Trunnion dia:  2 3/4 in.

Mark on upper muzzle face:  116 (hard to read)

Mark on lower muzzle face:  Two letters, illegible

No marks on top of tube

Vent was bouched with wrought copper as in a US military piece


Other measurements: 

Trunnion rear to basering rear:  15 "
Length bet. rimbases:  6 15/16"
Trunnion Length:  2 1/4 "
Tube length, muzzle face to basering rear:  38 1/8 "
Basering circumference:  24 in.  (7.64 in. dia.)
Breech ahead of basering:  21.5" circumf.
Tube length overall incl. knob:  42 1/4"

Like I said, this is one of the smaller ones, I found a significantly larger, heavier one in a private collection.

[rampa room artillery]

well, steen wont give up any prints and i understand thats, how he make  money,

  I wil have to keep surching for some. I have learned i need 8in od round stock tho thank you guys. that might be a little hard to come up with. maybe herns 3/4 scale 6lb gun will be of correct size.

rick bryan
3rd va co B

[GGaskill]

Yeah, 8" round stock is going to be pretty heavy and pretty expensive these days.

[rampa room artillery]

scrap steel prices have fallen major. from srap yards around me it will cost about 150 dollars
 now i just have to find the peice of steel for the job

rick bryan
3rd va co B

[cannonmn]

Rick, how did you plan to do the trunnions?  If you used the dimensions I posted for the "lost" Smithsonian piece, you'd need a cylinder almost a foot diameter to get the trunnions included in the machined piece, if everything was hogged out.  Are you planning to install a trunnion band, or what?

[Cannoneer]

Rick, how did you plan to do the trunnions?  If you used the dimensions I posted for the "lost" Smithsonian piece, you'd need a cylinder almost a foot diameter to get the trunnions included in the machined piece, if everything was hogged out.  Are you planning to install a trunnion band, or what?

 I'll preface this reply with the admission that I'm not a machinist but their posts are one of the main reasons I love this forum; it's fascinating (at least to me) to learn about things I don't know. So, if I've been absorbing at least a little of what I've read here I'd say that the majority of them say the best (safest & strongest) method is to mill a shallow pocket and then pressure or shrink fit the trunnion in place followed by welding it to the tube.

[rampa room artillery]

The  trunnions will be welded on after the gun is bored that is the last thing you want to do do to the metal hardening under the weld my cannon maker  has lost boring drill bits in the bore of a cannon once because of the trunnion welds. at 350.00 a drill bit, you just cant do them first.

rick bryan
3rd va co B

[Max Caliber]

Here are pictures of an Ames 3-pounder in the Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, Army Post museum. It is mounted on an original mountain howitzer carriage with limber. It appeared to me to be about a 3/4 scale copy of a model 1841 6-pounder. I read somewhere that when the Army decided to adopt a small, easily portable field piece, that the 3-pounder was considered along with the 12-pounder mountain howitzer and the mountain howitzer won out. I would think that if the 3-pounder had been adopted that it probably would be one of the most popular of the replicated field pieces today. It is a beautiful piece.

Max

[cannonmn]

Thanks for posting the pic.  That's the same setup I saw at the Smithsonian, same limber, same limber chests, etc.  In fact it could be the same gun if it is no. 116, I'm still surprised the staff at Smithsonian has no idea where their gun went or when.

I'd really like to know what information they have on that gun, and what's on the sign.  If you don't have that info I'll have to call them. 

[Cannoneer]

It is a beautiful piece.

Max

 It certainly is! Does anyone know why the carriage is sporting that blue/gray paint?

[cannonmn]

carriage is sporting that blue/gray paint?

Remember these were never US Army official weapons, so this one may have belonged to a private or state militia, the Mormons, or some other group.  Then the militia or group painted all their stuff that color.  Or, whenever the Fort's museum got it back when, it needed paint and that color is what they had onhand.  That's one reason I'm interested in how the Army got it, maybe there's something on their property card regarding a donation or capture.

[Max Caliber]

The paint is actually a dark faded green. Must have been the lighting that caused it to look blue in the picture.

Max

[GGaskill]

Does anyone know if that is exactly a 3/4 scale (or some other exact scale) version of the M1841 6 pounder?

[rampa room artillery]

I have done a little investigation myself on how i can make one the easiest,  HERN Iron works is my plan their 2/3 scale 6lb cannon is within 1 inch of correct length of the gun and that meets N-SSA rules of 10% give way.  it is bored with a 2 1/4 bore but I am dilling that out and sleaving it to 3in. I am in the works of seeing if the gun will pass inspection as a used gun of the civil war.

I will let you guys know.
RIck bryan
3rd va co b

[cannonmn]

In a month or so, maybe sooner I should have the numbers and any history they have on the 3 pdr. at Ft. L.  Out of the blue yesterday I got an email from a friend who just got a job there, and of course I begged the favor immediately.

[cannonmn]

Well what a concidence!  My friend talked to the Ft. Leavenworth museum.  They said the 3-pounder was only on loan from the Smithsonian and was returned years ago.

The Smithsonian told me they knew nothing about the 3-pounder.

The sucker musta disappeared into thin air!

[GGaskill]

Were Max Caliber's pix in reply #10 above recent or long past?  Did your friend look around the museum to see if it was still there?  Maybe it's in some retired general's (or retired museum CO's) back yard now.  :-)

[Max Caliber]

The pictures of the 3-pounder were taken at Fort Leavenworth in April of 1999. The piece is probably now at some other Army post.

Other cannon of interest there at that time:

1.65-inch Hotchkiss mountain gun
.50 Govt. caliber Gatling, Model 1877 on field carriage
Bronze Coehorn mortar
30-pounder Army Parrott rifle
24-pounder iron siege gun, pattern of 1819
3-inch Ordnance rifle on carriage in front of post headquarters
6-pounder bronze gun, pattern 1838
2-3 12-pounder U.S.Napoleons, Model 1857
3 ornate French bronze long SB guns
6 mountain howitzers in the chapel.

Most of these guns are scattered around the post, there may have been others that I did not find.

Max

[Rickk]

I can't help with any of this, and it doesn't really matter, but I live about 15 miles from where the Ames factory used to be. There is this little section at the intersection of Springfield and Chicopee Massachusetts... also the intersection of I291 and I90, where the Ames factory used to be.

Presently, the most obvious landmark left is a McDonalds and a bowling alley.

Rick

[gunsonwheels]

Here's another clip on the Ames:

http://wn.com/1841_Model_Civil_War_Cannon

[rampa room artillery]

has this gun turned up anywhere yet??  or was it sold into private hands?   

  rick bryan

[KABAR2]

Rick if you are going to bore it out larger why not see if Hern would cast it solid this way
you don't have to deal with drilling out the liner....

[MR.GADGET]

THey will not let us use any more scale guns any more.

Guns that are in use are fine but no more.......

[MR.GADGET]

Rick if you are going to bore it out larger why not see if Hern would cast it solid this way
you don't have to deal with drilling out the liner....

We need a liner on all cast guns.

[rampa room artillery]

this is a full scale gun,  but yes you are correct john,  a liner would be required.  and i would have to bore the hern with the liner, they would  not cast it solid, i called them.  and then I would have to bore it out. then line it. it would be cheaper to make from solid stock. and would look nicer.
 
        if i built one tho i would have it cast out of bronze.  solid then bored to meet nssa standards. with the chemical formula pre sent in for approval. 

  rick bryan

[KABAR2]

Rick if you are going to bore it out larger why not see if Hern would cast it solid this way
you don't have to deal with drilling out the liner....

We need a liner on all cast guns.

I know we need a liner, he is looking to bore it out and line to a larger caliber therefore I sugesseted
haveing it cast solid with no liner to keep problems down, if boring it out larger why wear out a drill
on 1018 when it is easier to drill iron?

[gunsonwheels]

With the apparent lack of information I can't help but wonder if someone might scale an 1841 to 3/4 scale, machine it and declare it an Ames 3 or 4 pounder...??

Does anyone really know what the subtle differences between the two are or might be??