Predatory Gunsmiths

[Land_Owner]

Posted here, on the 45ACP/1911 Colt Handguns Forum, to coincide with my "Please explain 'limp wristing'..." post http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,237945.0.html, but if deemed more appropriate on the Rifle and Optics Gunsmithing Forum, or even the Shotgun Forum it is hoped that there will be a link here for continuity.

My "gunsmith" (see comments in link above) has entered the Realm of Predator. 

When I took my Thompson AO1911 to him, I also took a "locked up" 12 gauge Winchester Model 1300 circa 1990 for repair along with two spent 3" Winchester Xpert High-Velocity [WEX1234] cases from the day it locked up.  He "checked it out", though he did not test fire it, looked at the spent cases (one prior to lockup and the one below that caused lockup), returned the cases, surmised the one case (below) was an overloaded powder charge, invoiced me $40.00 for the shotgun, and said it was "Good to go." finding "nothing unusual in its workings" he said.

I immediately test fired the shotgun at my property (not at the gunsmith) and it immediately locked up again, this time disconnecting the firing pin from the firing pin keeper plate with a 2-3/4" Winchester Lite Load [WINLITE WL12FL8].  I took the shotgun back.

He asked for and received the spent shotgun cases for measurements.  I was careful to indicate I wanted the cases back.  I told him I wanted to send the cases with the shotgun to Winchester.  He now informs me it is a liability issue for Winchester, he can do no more, and he threw (or allowed someone that cleans his shop) to throw the cases away!  "Sorry.  What is done is done." he said.

WTH?  You gotta be kidding me!!  Who runs a "gunsmith" business like that?  I was kind, decent, paid his expected fee, and was considering bringing him my AR's for trigger work.

HA!  Not hardly after being treated like this.  What an A$$ he is!!!!!!!

[LanceR]

Land_Owner, I appreciate your frustration.

I sometimes wonder if due to the immense number and types of firearms on the market if many gunsmiths are only vaguely familiar with most actions when it comes to diagnosing issues.  After all, since most gunsmiths seem to handle all or nearly all phases of the field it is kind of like using one repairman to fix the knock in your car's engine, repair the transmission, do the body work sew new upholstery covers.

I'm sure no expert but those cases seem to indicate that the bolt was not locking fully closed.  At the risk of asking a dumb question, was the barrel nut tight?

What kind of AR trigger work are you looking for?  The stock GI style two stage trigger is easy to replace with any of dozens of drop in trigger sets for reasonable cost and with less chance of finding yourself in possession of another unintended automatic firearm

Good luck in finding a better gunsmith.  Hopefully, the next one is a better businessman, too.

Lance

[Land_Owner]

The barrel nut was tight.  Above are multiple images of the same case - the one that "blew" the breech open upon firing.  It is thought that the round went off in the chamber and "blasted" the breech open as the expanding gases were still looking for some place to go.  Also, there was no barrel obstruction.

My supposition is there is something mechanically wrong that allowed the bolt to slam open on firing.  Now, I don't know how that could happen.  I don't know how the locking mechanism is supposed to work on the Model 1300.  The Smith suggested it might have been an overloaded powder charge.  But there is no recall on the Winchester site for these shotshells.

It is thought that if the breech had been slightly open when the round went off (like a slam fire with the firing pin stuck out) the case would be significantly bulged all the way to the point at which the case was still in the chamber, even separating the plastic from the brass, if some partial chambering was experienced - which looks not to be correct.

Now, the Smith tells me it is a Winchester warranty issue.  Why the heck didn't he just go there to begin with.  No!  He took my $40.00 and then walked away.  Don't I feel stupid...and then he took the evidence that I wanted to show Winchester and threw it away!  What an A$$ he is.

[spruce]

I know very little about the intricacies of the Win 1300 action.
 
Having said that, I do know it has a rotating bolt with multiple front locking lugs that lock directly into the barrel extension.  Generally an inherently strong action design also used in some centerfire rifles.
From looking at your pictures of the fired case I would guess the round was fully chambered at the moment of firing.  I would think if it had been only partway into the chamber there would be a SEVERE bulge or rupture of the brass.
Could there be crud buildup in the locking recesses inside the barrel extension, thereby preventing the bolt (or bolt head) from fully rotating into the locked position?  So, in effect, at the moment of firing could the bolt have appeared to be fully closed, but not actually fully locked??
 
This is just a WAG, I don't really know enough about the action to make an educated guess!

[ratdog]

in have not been able to find a gun smith that i would trust my guns with i would send it back to the manufacturer.if you can.

[ratdog]

timney makes a real good ar trigger i changed mine out a while ago 3lb pull a little pricey easy installation got it from midsouth.i know you said you had a win 1300 but i had a new 1200 that was junk traded it of have a mosberg 500 now good gun for nothing my friend gave it to me in a box in pieces didn't know how to put it together took me about an hour to figure it out.

[SHOOTALL]

Alot og gun smiths seem ti have an attitude . Some cater to a group and all other work is rushed thru. I guess they have their interst and everything else is just busy work to pay bills. I also see some treat customers different ,according to what they shoot and how much work they give them . Both poor business pratice. Which brings up the fact many maybe most are poor business people. The worst of them feel they know what a customer wants/should have with out concern for what is ask for. I think often they are the only smith around and feel they will always have work.
 There are some good smiths out there. They are fair and respectable toward the customer. They are easy to find most often they ask a customer what they can do for them instead of what have you screwed up now .

[BBF]

I must have a horseshoe up my rear. With the Gunsmiths I have ever dealt with (more then a handful) all have given me good service at reasonable to good prices including some freebies.
Sorry to hear your predicament.
 
BTW I can't see any trigger/rotating bolt assembly firing without being in full battery. At least my BAR didn't for which I'm very very grateful. Setting off a 338 Win Mag inside a house with the barrel pointed down between the legs...................

[H-Bomb]

close the action on your shotgun and take a wooden dowel down the muzzle end..tap it with a mallet. the action should not open. has the reciever been taken apart and checked for any broken pieces?

[Land_Owner]

Interesting idea H-bomb.  All parts and pieces "appear" to be satisfactory, at least to the gunsmith.  Apparently not so satisfactory as the gun locked up again.  I have returned it to Winchester/Olin for R&R.

[hillbill]

i just went and met a gunsmith today to see about some work i needed done. a freind turned me on to him, he seems sharp and was a cast bullet guy also.he works out of a little shed the size of my living room in a little podunk town nearby.i have high hopes for him.ill be takeing him a slide off my 1911 argentine colt to have some new adjustable sights installed.if he does work out i hope its not like the last smith i was useing. after doing sum nice work he just went and retired!

[Land_Owner]

I have now had two poor experiences with gunsmiths.  That is the sum total of my experience with Smiths.  I am quickly gaining an attitude that I don't want to go to a Smith anymore.  A fellow shooter that I had dinner with last night told me about a British Smith near me.  Perhaps I will try again.  Third time's the charm maybe?

[SHOOTALL]

I have two "friends" that are gun smiths . One has a gun of mine now for 20 years to repair. He seldom charged for other work. The other has never charged a dime. I do the same for them with mechanical work. The one with the gun for 20 years is starting to get on my nerves . I think some are just that way.

[BBF]

If the UK bloke   learned his trade there, he should know his business.

[SHOOTALL]

If he learned it there would he know auto's and pumps ?