Author Topic: Underclocked on casting - - -  (Read 1405 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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« on: December 19, 2003, 10:00:38 PM »
How much to get started?

What do you really need? From where?

What's the best spot to obtain lead?

What Brinell hardness is too hard? Is pure lead the best?

What is you favorite lube?

Offline Underclocked

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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2003, 06:02:43 AM »
Kind of putting me on the spot, eh?  There are about a zillion guys that could answer this better than I.   But I'll take a shot at most of it.  I'll leave the hardness to those qualified to answer, my tester is a thumbnail.  :)

Cost is a HUGE variable depending on the paths you take.  You could work pretty much with just what you might find already in your home or shop and only add a decent mold to start.  So the answer to initial cost could be anywhere from $20 to several digits of dollars.  I would expect an outlay of about $150 to reasonably set up for one bullet, with only the cost of molds for additional bullets - unless you get into gas checks or ???

I would suggest you start looking now for a free or cheap source of lead (NOT wheelweights! for muzzleloaders). Roofing lead, plumbing lead, lead pipe, x-ray shielding, boat ballast....

Commercial ingots can be purchased from MidwayUSA, BuffaloArms.com, TheAntimonyMan.com, and others.   Those ingots are of known purity and weight so you might want to start with those before trying the scrap sources.   Shipping tends to be a little costly. :)  

It's easy to get a pretty useless alloy when using scrap sources.   My recommendation as to hardness is to get as near to pure lead as possible, easily scratched with a thumbnail, for conicals.  You could use significantly harder alloys for sabot purposes but remember the intended use of your bullet.  If the bullet is for hunting you will want good expansion which will come from the softer alloys.  Pure is hard to beat but a little tin makes the melt flow and fill the mold more readily.  For conicals certainly no more than a 2% tin alloy and preferably a bit less would be desirable.

To get into it cheaply here's my recommends:

You could use a large cast iron or thick aluminum kettle over a camp stove or similar heat source, but so far as commercial pots, the Lee Pro 4-20 melting pot - there is a bottom pour variation and also a ladle model - both about the same price.  I recommend getting the larger size pot to achieve a move even mix that maintains temperature more consistently.  From what I've read, if you want to go a little upscale on the pot, skip the Lyman version.

Lee molds with handles are a bargain if you can find a suitable one for your purpose.  MountainMolds.com can make you about any mold your heart desires at a reasonable price but you would need suitable handles.  Dan, at Mountain Molds, seems to be a very talented individual as well as a friendly person.  

Lee Lube & Sizing Kits can be had for cheap in most common sizes.  Lee will make most any size you would need for $25 to your door.

Lee Lead Ladle for stirring/skimming but if you plan to ladle pour, get the Lyman ladle or similar.

You might also want to consider an ingot mold for making conveniently sized quantities of lead, especially if you are into cleaning and melting down scrap lead.  I have a second pot for that purpose.

A fluxing substance, of which there are many that work, to help in the purification process.  Fluxing helps coagulate impurities and makes removing them a more doable prospect.  Clean cedar sawdust added to the pot will work.  There are many commercial fluxes available.

LUBE - a whole other world - but a good lubing method and material is mandatory.  Everything from Crisco to Alox to custom made blends can be used with success.  Super91 (Bob Bowers) has an excellent recipe for some great lube!

Okay, that is the essential stuff.  You could go cheaper on the melting pot but I wouldn't recommend it.  There are other things you will need, primarily a WELL-ventilated work area. Also rags, bucket of water, plastic or rubber mallet, gloves, eye protection, a straight screwdriver, and aluminum containers (pie pans work) will/may be needed.  Most of these are items you will already have.  Get creative and save a few bucks - for example, if you have an extra aluminum muffin pan it could become a muffin ingot mold.  :-)   Of course you would want to clear that with the boss.

There is a lot I've left out, I'm sure.  We need to get some of the talent from the GB bullet casting/swaging forum to fill in the holes.   Be nice if Super91 or Mose would throw in some of their knowledge - both make EXCELLENT boolets for the muzzleloader.





My own produce is humble by comparison, but I've shot 5/8" 100 yard groups using the bullet pictured below and pan-lubed with a 50/50 Alox/alcohol blend.

WHUT?

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2003, 06:51:03 AM »

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2003, 12:49:06 AM »
I wish some one would make a sabot that you could use a 45/70 bullet ( .459 ) in  a 50 cal rifle or if not that a 54 cal rifle. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Winter Hawk

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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2003, 02:09:54 PM »
Randy,

I second what Underclocked said.  My own setup is a Lyman cast iron pot I bought 30+ years ago with the Lyman ladle.  Molds are various I have picked up over the years.  Lee mostly because of their cost, though I would rather use an iron mold.

I bought a hundred pounds of lead ten years ago and am still working on that.  Got it at a scrap metal dealer in Portland.  If you can scratch it with your thumbnail it is soft enough.  Contrary to Underclocked I don't mind using wheelweights for conicals.  But I use the alloys for the .308 which doesn't really fit in a M/L discussion.

I use Alox from Lee as lube.  It works fine for my purposes and is less messy than other concoctions.

My heat source is a camp stove outside, or I'll open the window in the kitchen and turn on the fan in the range hood to get good ventilation and use the kitchen stove.  Some folks shudder at that, others don't.  I figure I have positive ventilation, better than in the garage even if the door is open.

The centerfire bullets go through a Lee sizing die which crimps the gas checks in place at the same time.  I make Lee R.E.A.L. bullets, Minnies and round ball for the muzzleloaders and don't size any of those.

This gives me a dependable, inexpensive setup to mold bullets, which I can carry with me in the car, canoe or whatever.

Hope this helps.  Have a good Christmas, everyone.

-Kees-
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline Super 91

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2003, 02:20:19 PM »
Sorry I have not been over on this board for many moons, but I agree 100% with UC.  He got me into casting, and the setup I got made me some beautiful bullets, for about the money he quoted.  I got so much into it, I ended up getting a Master Caster from Magma Engineering about a month ago and have just started using it.  Makes great bullets fast and with a few custom molds from Dan at Mountain Molds, this is one sweet set-up.  I am waiting for some custom dies from Magma, and then I'll be on the range slinging lead.  But if you just want to get into it to try it, what UC said is great.  One thing I have found that is important is fluxing your lead, and using good lead.  I tried lead from a number of cheap sources and all were sub-standard, to say the least.  Get some Marvelux for fluxing.  Smells wonderful, doesn't smoke or flame up, and cleans and conditions the lead better than anything else I have tried.  Keeps the pot nice too.

Offline tucoblue

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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2003, 04:25:19 AM »
I was a real hit with the kitchen boss many years ago when I managed to melt a hole in the aluminum pot I was melting lead in. Twenty-some pounds of lead found it's way into every crevice in the (Electric) stove.

Offline edmehlig

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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2004, 12:06:21 PM »
Randy, here's a list of things that Super91 and UC provided me with the list of things that I needed to get started to start casting 450 and 475gr connicals for my 45cal White M98.

Casting Equipment
            
Code: [Select]
  Item                  Part No.            Cost    Quantity      Total Cost[/b]
    Code: [Select]
    Lee Pro 4-20 Furnace   645810           61.63       1              61.63 [/list:u]
      Code: [Select]
      Lyman Ingot Mold   496285           13.37       1                13.37[/list:u]
        Code: [Select]
        Lee Ladle            161177             2.97       1              2.97 [/list:u]
          Code: [Select]
          Brownells Marvelux   595972             9.29       2               18.58[/list:u]
            Code: [Select]
            Lyman Mold # 451114 015-2641114          38.44        1                38.44[/list:u]
              Code: [Select]
              Lyman Mold # 457121 015-2641121          38.44        1                38.44[/list:u]
                Code: [Select]
                Lyman Large Mold Handles        698819      27.56        2                55.12[/list:u]
                  Code: [Select]
                  Frankford Arsenal Mold Release 763758       8.61        1                  8.61[/list:u]
                    Code: [Select]
                    Midway 30:1 Lead – 30Lbs.        552802     27.85        1              27.85[/list:u]
                      Code: [Select]
                      Small CrockPot from Walmart               8.00        1                8.00[/list:u]
                        Code: [Select]
                        Lee .451 Lube and Sizer Kit       444306      11.88        1           11.88[/list:u]

                        To buy all of the ingredients to make Bob's Super Lube if my memory serves me correctly cost me about an additional $50.

                        Sorry, it didn't align as I typed it.  Don't know what happened.

                        Ed

                        Offline RandyWakeman

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                        « Reply #8 on: January 03, 2004, 01:10:45 PM »
                        Don't know, Ed-- sure looks legible to me.


                        Thank you.

                        Offline jh45gun

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                        « Reply #9 on: January 03, 2004, 01:22:41 PM »
                        Underclocked, Interesting in seeing the conicals for a muzzle loader using the gas checks? How do they work as far as the barrel goes do they scrape some of the fowling out as they go? Just wondering. How big can you get gas checks do they make them for larger than 45cal? One more thing guys some lube recipies would be appreciated. The last lube I used that worked ok was some left over bore butter mixed 50/50 with bees wax but other recipies would be appreciated. Jim
                        Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

                        Offline Underclocked

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                        « Reply #10 on: January 03, 2004, 02:11:29 PM »
                        They result in less fouling left in the bore but I'm not sure if that is due to scraping action of the gas check or simply that the better seal makes for more complete combustion.  There are some few gas checks made in .50 caliber but Mose has been unable to find one that performs suitably.  Given the discussions I've read, it would seem some are exploring the possibility of making their own.  We need to get Hornady to make some in the correct size(s) for such use.  :)

                        I think most of us are now primarily using Bob's recipe/lube which works very well indeed.  

                        Bob's most recent recipe (I think) is as follows:

                        _____________________________________________________________

                        Recipe for Bob’s Best Bullet Lube

                        Color Coded  Super Blue .451 caliber Lube

                        9 Tablespoons Heavy Mineral Oil
                        5 Tablespoons Odorless Tasteless Caster Oil
                        6 Tablespoons Anhydrous Lanolin, slightly rounded
                        1 Tablespoon Carnuba Turtle Wax Car Wax Paste, Heaping
                        75 Grains Ivory Soap, shaved
                        4”x3 ¾”x 1 3/16” White Beeswax
                        100 Drops Blue Candle Wax Dye
                        1 Haley blue dye cake
                        1 Haley white dye cake

                        Recipe

                        Place mineral oil, caster oil, and anhydrous lanolin in a pot to heat. Once the anhydrous lanolin has melted, bring the mix to medium heat until mix begins to smoke. Add the shaved Ivory soap. The soap will foam and not mix in well till the final step. Add beeswax, blue and white candle wax dye. Stir until wax has melted completely. Add heaping tablespoon of turtle wax. Stir until mix boils evenly and let boil until done, stirring occasionally. Bring heat to low and wait till all sediment stays on the bottom. Try to keep from having enough heat for mix to smoke. Pour while hot into container (I prefer to use a small 1.5 quart crock-pot) pouring until you reach the sediment. Do not allow the sediment to enter the container.

                        Hints for Lubing if you do not have a luber/sizer (This recipe does not require heat to use a luber/sizer, it’s more like the Javelina Alox soft lube.)

                        Heat mix in crock-pot on low heat until liquid. Take clear tubing with a 3/8” ID and cut about a 6” piece making sure the end is cut squarely across. Insert the nose of the bullet to be lubed into the tubing till you reach the first groove on the bullet. Dip the bullet into the lube, take out and hold in the air for a second or two. Wipe the excess off the bottom of the bullet on a towel and squeeze the bullet out onto a soft towel. Once you are done, start with the coolest bullets first. Run the bullet through your sizer die, and wipe off any extra lube. The only extra you normally get is a little extra on the nose. Let cool to room temperature overnight and you are ready to hunt!

                        _____________________________________________________________

                        There are to be found a myriad of recipes for bullet lubes.  My simple Alox/Alcohol lube works well but stinks and is NOT pretty.  It also leaves a bit more residual in the bore.  With Bob making such great stuff, I've gotten lazy (yeah, like that's Bob's fault!   :)  )  In a pinch good ol' Crisco will work great as a muzzleloader lube for most any bullet, it's just messy to handle.
                        WHUT?

                        Offline jh45gun

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                        « Reply #11 on: January 03, 2004, 02:30:47 PM »
                        Thanks for the recipe Underclocked. I am guessing that the Cake dyes white and blue can be bought at a candle shop? Is that what it is? I saw the blue dye for candles but what is Haley blue and white dye cake? Also where can the lanolin be bought at? Thanks for any additional info you can give me. Jim
                        Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

                        Offline Underclocked

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                        « Reply #12 on: January 03, 2004, 02:48:51 PM »
                        We need to get Bob back over here to give you the specifics.  He has made every bit of the recipe that I've used so I haven't had to chase down the ingredients.   :-)
                        WHUT?

                        Offline jh45gun

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                        « Reply #13 on: January 03, 2004, 02:50:44 PM »
                        Ok when he does that would be great. Thanks Jim
                        Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

                        Offline Super 91

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                        « Reply #14 on: January 04, 2004, 09:12:50 AM »
                        Jim, the lanolin can be purchased at any old timey drug store.  It is many times a non-stock item and may have to be ordered.  Make sure it is ANHYRDOUS and not hydrous lanolin.  You know what happens when you mix hot oil with cold water, it's not pretty.

                        Haley is just a brand name.  Any kind of dye can be used and it's not a necessity, I just do it to make the lube look pretty.  They also have a flouresent blue which will work as well.  If you use that, I don't think the white would be needed.

                        Offline jh45gun

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                        « Reply #15 on: January 04, 2004, 06:02:58 PM »
                        Super91 Thanks for the reply I will have to make up a batch and try it after I find all the ingredients.
                        Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

                        Offline RandyWakeman

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                        « Reply #16 on: January 04, 2004, 06:54:24 PM »
                        Thanks to everyone, especially Super 91, UC, and Ed for helping to gather this all in one spot! :toast:

                        Offline edmehlig

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                        « Reply #17 on: January 05, 2004, 02:07:38 AM »
                        Bob, that Hailey Cake dye, where do you purchase it SuperMarket or Arts & Crafts store?

                        Ed

                        Offline Super 91

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                        « Reply #18 on: January 05, 2004, 08:49:26 AM »
                        Ed, every craft store in town here carries the same stuff.  So the first place I would check is a Craft store.  You might find it at Wal-mart, but I don't know.  I am always in the craft store to get the beeswax, so that is where I get it.