Author Topic: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70  (Read 1048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cootiekey

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 2
Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« on: July 24, 2011, 05:25:34 AM »
Keyhole 45-70


I just shot my first box of ammunition (hand loaded)through a used NEF 45-70 (single shot break action) rifle I recently picked up and got really bad results. I used new star line brass, 15g of Trail Boss powder, and cast 385g bullets. I had previously shot one round of full powered 45-70 in someone else's rifle. It knocked me back two inches on the bench (ouch), so I decided to be a wimp going with this rifle and use Trail Boss for a much lighter load (the NEF rifle only weighs 6.5 Lbs). I started sighting in at 50 yds, but didn't place a round anywhere on the target. I kept moving the target forward until it was only 15 yds away before I could figure out what was going on.

About 70 percent of the hits were keyholes and were scattered all over the place. The 30 percent that punched nice round holes actually grouped a little. The first round I fired surprised me. Instead of a resounding boom and a kick in the shoulder I got a pop and a recoil somewhere between a 233 and a 22lr. At first I thought the powder failed to ignite and expected to find the bullet lodged in the barrel. The barrel was clear, there was no unburned powder in the barrel, and no soot on the outside of the case. The bullet had gone somewhere (not to the target). It turns out that the rounds were firing and the charge was burning just fine.

I haven’t run additional experiments with the load yet and would like others insights before chasing down my own wild guesses.

Why are the bullets so unstable to instantly start tumbling and what can I do with the loads to fix this problem?

Thanks guys.

Background Information: The NEF rifle has a 22 inch barrel with a 20:1 twist rate and weighs 6.5 Lbs. I used new Starline brass, 15g of Trail Boss powder, and cast 385g bullets (from a Lyman mold I think). I do not know the MV but I expect it is very low as the recoil and report were both very low. According to IMR load chart, I should be getting a MV somewhere around 1100 fps. I used a Lee factory crimp die, but only enough to remove the bell on the brass. The bullets were not heavilly crimped. I figured there was no need as the rifle is single feed (no tubular magazine). I gave the muzzle crown a good looking at and it appears brand new. The bore of looks practically new as well (eye balling it - no bore scope (I wish I had one)). I made a dummy round (no primer or powder) with the bullet set very long to determine how long the throat of the barrel was. It is very short and barely clears the 385g RN bullet when fully seated. Looking into the breach using my bare eye, it sort of looks like the chamber was cut to head space off the case mouth. There is a very abrupt lip transition from the chamber diameter to the bore. The beginning of the lands look like they were cut off vertical (no ramp). This could all be an optical effect since I am looking in from the breach, though I must say I can see the land ramps on my 45 ACP pistol barrel when looking in from the breach.


Offline gcrank1

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7644
  • Gender: Male
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 06:11:20 AM »
What dia. are your bullets, sounds like they are too small. If you are lubing/sizing them to .457-.458 try them as cast dia. in a fully fire-formed case mouth. For trials you can lube the grooves by finger with a little soft lube.
You will be in no danger using about 20gr. of Trail Boss, basically a case full to the seated bullet base.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline bikerbeans

  • Trade Count: (168)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • Gender: Male
  • BANDIT - North American Snake Hound
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 06:18:39 AM »
Hi,
 
I tried Trail Boss in the my 45-120 32"BC and the starter load per Hodgdon of a 70% full case gave me keyholes with 525 grain Postels, sized .459.  At about a 77% full case on up the bullets stabilized and where fairly accurate.  As gcrank1 says if the bullets are undersized you can also have a stability issue. 
 
Handi 45-70s are known to have very short throats.   There are many bullets out there that cannot be loaded to the SAAMI OAL of 2.55".  A lot of folks have used a throating reamer to resolve this problem.  Your gun should be headspacing off the rim not the case mouth.
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 06:18:48 AM »
You either have an undersized bullet or too light a load to upset the bullet into the rifling, probably the former.  My rifle does best with .458-.459 bullets.  At really low pressure and velocity, I use pure lead.  For higher velocity I use #2 alloy.
 
The 45-70's are very accurate as a rule.
 
Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 06:31:54 AM »
Welcome! What they said, you've received good advice!!  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline thejanitor

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (59)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Gender: Male
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 07:19:32 AM »
Welcome to GBO! You are among friends here, many who have the 45-70 use high performance loads for hunting and plink with a more moderate load. My son and I both use the trailboss loads for just fun plinking.... The first batch of 405 gr cast bullets I bought we loaded with TB and they shot great, I bought some other cast 405 gr bullets, same load , same brass and key holes all over the 2 ft square cardboard at 50 yds.... I measured the second batch of bullets and they were undersized. So bullet diameter means all the difference in the world. I just figured 45-70 bullets were 45-70 bullets.... not the case in the cast world.
So figure out the actual bore diameter and shoot the right sized bullets and you will absolutely love that gun. My sons 3 shot group at 100 yds cloverleaf.
And then if you ever get drawn for an elk tag or something and you want a load that has less rainbow but more recoil, experiment with some warmer loads and you will be all set.
Hope you get it to drive tacks,  thejanitor

Offline Dinny

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (268)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5524
  • Gender: Male
  • "Medics Save"
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 08:56:42 AM »
I shoot a 330gr Lyman HP cast bullet that is cast from pure lead. With 11gr of TB, I get around 1100fps and great accuracy.  I credit bullet diameter to it's great accuracy, .459"  ;)  The FAQs are a great place to search for all sorts of Handi data. There you will find info regarding slugging your barrel.



Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline cootiekey

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 2
Re: Keyhole shots - NEF 45-70
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 02:55:20 PM »
 Hi all. I've had a chance to experiment a little more with this rifle/load. I am using 385 grain bullets that I bought over the internet. They were described as “hard cast”. Like others have been saying, it seemed likely that bands on the bullet were not expanding out and sealing down into the groves of the barrel rifling. I figured that going with a higher pressure may help out so I made up some hotter loads. My original try was 15 gr of Trail Boss powder. I measured how deep the bullet seated into the case and determined the maximum un-compressed powder charge it would hold (17 gr). I made up a batch of ammunition using the 17 gr charge, half with no crimp, half with crimp. I also made up a second batch with 18 gr of powder, half with no crimp, half with crimp.


Well the keyhole problem went away and I was getting tighter groups with the 18 gr of Trail Boss. Crimping or not crimping doesn't seem to matter so I will be nice to my brass and no crimp. I feel better now that I understand what was going on and that there is nothing wrong with the rifle.


Thanks to all that responded.