Problems with .22RF annealing

[rossi]

Hi there,

I have acquired a .224 die set from Blackmon to make .22RF into .224 bullets.

Both Blackmon and Corbin write about annealing the cases after having ironed out the rim. I tried different annealing temperatures, from 250°C to 320°C (more or less 600°F for the higher temperature). I started with 320°C for 15 minutes, and went down to 250°C for 3 minutes. For comparison, 250°C is the highest temperature on a common kitchen oven.

The problem is that all the annealed cases turn from a shiny color to a dull brownish color. Even at 250°C for 3 minutes.
I have read that if the cases change color I have annealed too much. Is that correct?
Am I doing something completely wrong?

How long should the cases be kept into the oven and at what temperature? Is this discoloration normal?

[talon]

In his book, "Rediscover Swaging", Mr Dave Corbin recommends 600f  ( 317C) for 20 minutes. He didn't address the oxidation situation. My oven only goes up to 500f, so I keep the brass in it for 30 minutes. They do come out dull brown, and even after tumbling for a few hours they are still brown, but shinny. One difficulty about being to precise in the annealing of .22rfs is that different companies use slightly different metal. As far as colors telling you if it's been over annealed, the color gray is a real warning. It may be worth your while to read "Rediscover Swaging. There's a whole chapter on .22rf jacket making.

[rossi]

I have read Corbin’s book N°8, which can be downloaded, and he suggests to wash the cases with hot soapy water and a bit of vinegar to keep them shiny. I have done that, and they remained bright. Even more than washing them without vinegar.
But why all these precautions to keep them shiny if I have to anneal them and they turn brownish anyway?

Have you ever tried to anneal them before derimming?
I have noticed that almost all of my Fiocchi cases show a sign of rupture at the height of the rim after ironing out the rim, while Lapua cases show no signs at all and are very easy to derimm, and Eley cases show sometimes a light ring but are still usable.
Maybe annealing some brands before removing the rim might avoid the rupture. Ever tried that?

[rossi]

I have found a nice way to pickle the cases. I didn’t want to try something with sulfuric acid, and prepared a mixture made of cheap white vinegar and salt. I poured the vinegar in a glass, and dissolved a pinch of salt in it. Then I put 3 very dark cases (those annealed at the highest temperature and for the longest time) in the glass. After 10 minutes (more or less) I looked into the glass and noticed that the cases turned to a nicer color. I took some other dark brown cases and placed them near the glass for comparison. The treated ones where almost clean. I pulled one case out of the glass, and without wiping my fingers dry I touched the dark case, and noticed that a “clean” fingerprint was left on the case. With my fingers wet of the mixture I could simply rub the scale of the cases.
Perhaps the mixture is to strong. I will make another test adding some water to the solution.

[trotterlg]

I don't make bullets, but I do anneal the case necks, when I do it I have to get them a nice dull red and then drop them in cold water.  If I let them cool slowly they get real hard.  Brass is just the opposite of steel, to soften it you get it hot and cool it fast.  Am I missing something about the desired outcome of your process?  Larry

[talon]

Yes, of course the ironed out and heated 22rf 'jackets' are put in water as soon as they come out of the oven. It's cleaning after that to get the scale and brownish color off of them that's the problem. Getting the scale off is critical and my method is tumbling. However, I've settled on shooting brown bullets rather than the nice shinny brass colored ones. They work just as well. For the money, you can't beat .22rf cases for very satisfactory jackets. They may not pin-wheel paper at 200 yards, but they have dropped plenty of tin cans and small game at shorter ranges without any trouble..

[shootergdv]

Hi there,

I have acquired a .224 die set from Blackmon to make .22RF into .224 bullets.

Both Blackmon and Corbin write about annealing the cases after having ironed out the rim. I tried different annealing temperatures, from 250°C to 320°C (more or less 600°F for the higher temperature). I started with 320°C for 15 minutes, and went down to 250°C for 3 minutes. For comparison, 250°C is the highest temperature on a common kitchen oven.

The problem is that all the annealed cases turn from a shiny color to a dull brownish color. Even at 250°C for 3 minutes.
I have read that if the cases change color I have annealed too much. Is that correct?
Am I doing something completely wrong?

How long should the cases be kept into the oven and at what temperature? Is this discoloration normal?

So how is the bullet making going ? I have Blackmon's derimmer and core mold, so I'm using them while I wait on the 3 dies I still need(just sent mr. Blackmon some $$ today !). Like to see pics of the process, report on results. My first try at swaging and I'd be glad to learn from other's - both good outcomes and mistakes ! Thanks, George

[Lead pot]

I run my annealed RF through the tumblers tumbler with water and ceramic media with dish soap, as well as the swaged bullets to remove all the lube.
They come out spotless and bright.

LP

[MIBullets]

I heat my jackets in my electric oven on the cleaning cycle of the oven. I preheat the oven to 550F, put them in and turn on the cleaning cycle for 30 min, let them cool and take them out. Works for me, I never get any folded tips.

As for getting the discoloration off, I tumble them. It takes a while though. Lead pot's idea using the ceramic media would be much faster. I have noticed that the cleaner the oven is before you put the cases in the less discoloration you get. It is probably the burning of carbon from any food or anything else in the oven in addition to the high heat.

[GREYGHOSTt]

i make a lot of jacketed bullets and have to anneal most of them. it is not un common to tumble them for 3 or 4 days.

[rossi]

I have finally found a suitable process.
I run the cases at 350°C for 30 minutes in an oven. I wrap the cases in an aluminum foil, because I noticed that they stay more clean. Maybe sealing them in some sort of container reduces the oxidation.
When I remove the cases from the oven I drop them directly into water. Again, I do this only to get them clean, not to quench them or similar. If I do drop the hot cases into water and let them cool, I can almost rub the scale off with my fingers. They still show discoloration, but the brown dirt comes partially off. This does not happen if the cases are allowed to cool in the air.
Now I boil them again in water, vinegar, salt and soap because I have noticed that, while seating the core, some scale is rubbed off. By the way, this happens only if the cases are dropped into the water directly after coming out of the oven. Boiling them again removes the loose scale/dirt.
Now my cases are clean and almost shiny. For the ultimate finish I tumble the finished bullets. By the way, I use an industrial soap, steel shot and tumble the bullets with water in a rotating tumbler. After that I dry the bullets tumbling them with a special wood media. This media does not make any dust and perfectly dries the bullets.
The bullets come out as new.
The soap is cheap, and the wood media can be dried and reused over and over again. This works great for cases too.

[nicholst55]

Anyone have contact info for Mr. Blackmon?

[MIBullets]

The last phone number he gave me is 1-318-387-3266.

[wranglerdave]

To remove the oxide from my RF jackets and I also use to clean the finished bullets to a shine that you need to put on sunglasses to look at them.
Get yourself some Bransonic Oxide Remover. One place that it is available is   http://www.all-spec.com/cgi-bin/fccgi.exe?w3exec=findit&session=1513834826E42164&showmode=all&w3phrase=+OXIDE +REMOVER&w3site=ALLSPEC
Be sure to order the Oxide Remover as Branson makes several products! You only need 1 tablespoon in a quart of hot water. Tumble in a Thumblers Tumbler (I use their model AR-12) for 45 minutes. One tablespoon will do about 500 finished bullets or 1000 jackets. I have used this oxide remover for cleaning centerfire cases for years and having just got into making 22 cal. bullets from RF jackets, it works equally well!

As for annealing the jackets before de-rimming, I have found that they stick to my core punch slowing this operation to the frustration of about 4-5 a minute. Needless to say, I don't anneal them first anymore!

I anneal in a toaster oven. I put them in a pie pan and set the temp on toast (450 F ) for about one hour and stir them around every 15 minutes. I get fewer than 5 % with folded tips. I would like to use the wife's oven as it will go up to 550 F but a friend of my ruined his wife's oven racks! They turned blue!

Anyway, the Branson Bransonic "OXIDE" Remover does a great job in a rotating tumbler like those made by Thumblers.

Dave McGrath

[Kmrere42]

Hi,


Just wanted to add in as I have been collecting brass to make some bullets.  What if I were to put some de-greased fine steel wool in with the cases in a sealed container when annealing to absorb some of the free oxygen and moisture to reduce or eliminate the oxidation of the brass. 



Paul

[danrickard]

hello, my name is Dan,
 i've been making 223 projectiles for some time now, and here are some of the things that i do, that could help you out greatly.
  black tarnish is normal when annealing cases,  you'll see this when using a torch, or propane.. this is due to the gas impurities.    if you anneal with natural gas you wont see this.. also if you anneal with electric stove, you wont see this.   a easy way to anneal them with electric stove, is to get a single electric stove  burner from an outlet and use it..

some easy ways of removing the black marks is to pickle the brass after annealing in a solution of hot water, lemon juice and salt.   you can also do a hot soapy water, and lemon juice mix, that works out well.. i tend to pickle brass for about an hour.. giving them a good shake every 15 min or so.  cleans them up real good, and washes out the grit from the inside of the cases as well.


if you have any questions or need help with swaging, feel free to contact me any time.

thanks,
 Dan
 drickard at gmail.com