Author Topic: 357 maximum issues with handloads (Read 1193 times)

hunterwinco · « **on:** August 11, 2011, 11:42:59 AM »

Hello all,
I recently reamed my 357 to a maximum. I am having a terrible time with reloads keyholing! I had to go down to 25yards before I noticed that my rounds were hitting the paper sideways

. I bought a box of S&B 357 mag 158gs and they will shoot an easy 1 inch group at 25 yards with my red dot. Buuuuttt, if I shoot a light load (950-1000 fps) with 158 g 357 meister bullets she wigs out big time and just keyholes! Anyone else experience this? No I havent now slugged the barrel. Any suggestions would be appreciated. - foster

OR-E-Gun Bill · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2011, 12:04:04 PM »

Since you haven't slugged the barrel yet I'd would suggest measuring the Meister bullet diameters.

Bill

gcrank1 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2011, 12:17:15 PM »

Sounds like the bullets are too small a dia., a common malady when we try to use lead bullets the same dia. as jacketed.

knight0334 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2011, 01:54:04 PM »

At just 25yds, if they are keyholing its probably too small of diameter of a bullet. The rifling twist rate shouldn't be an issue considering the lessor cartridge shot accurately.

As a general rule, always get lead slugs .001"-002" larger, sometimes .003" larger, than what the jacketed bullet would be - depending on your bore and groove's diameter.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2011, 02:21:56 PM »

Two of my 45 cal rifles will keyhole cast lead if the velocity drops too low. I think at the higher velocity the bullets bump up a bit and engage the rifling better plus they are rotating faster. If your load data allows for it and you have bought a bunch of the cast bullets that are keyholing you might try speeding them up a bit.

BB

hunterwinco · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2011, 02:36:20 PM »

I guess its these meisters bullets. I was hoping to be able to run them through this rifles as a friend of mine gave me 1500 of them when he sold his Blackhawk. I just got back from the range. I had loaded up 5 rounds with some 158g Rainier plated bullets over 6.5 grains of HS6 and they made a large ragged hole that I could cover with a quarter! twas a pretty good group for 5 quick test shots...oh yeah, my buddy gave me 500 Rainiers too!

That was an interesting suggestion about cranking up the speed on the Meisters...I was wondering if that might help to sqash them to the bore a little tighter.

Spanky · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2011, 03:30:54 PM »

I think BB has the right idea. Try speeding them up a little and see how they shoot.

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2011, 04:23:37 PM »

That may do it, but if you have a mic, check the dia. of the ones that work (the box aint always really marked right) a save it for future reference!
If you have, or a friend has, a sizing die of that dia. you could 'bump' the undersize ones up.

Gohon · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2011, 06:41:00 AM »

Quote

If you have, or a friend has, a sizing die of that dia. you could 'bump' the undersize ones up.

How do you do that? All my sizing dies decrease the diameter.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2011, 06:49:54 AM »

Lets say the bullets that are working are .359 and the ones not are .357. If you have a .359 or .360 sizing die you can drop the 'undersize bullet into the die and by pressing it hard can squeeze it up to that die dia. NOTE, this is hard on most sizing machine's linkages. Tell me what kind of sizing die set up you have because there are a couple of different approaches, and you have lots of bullets to bump!
To just try out the idea (and so others will know) one way you can do this in a bench vise or arbor press with the size die freestanding, but it is slow.

Gohon · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2011, 07:37:45 AM »

Guess I'm just slow because I'm still not getting it. I have a RCBS single press and I'm pretty sure if I screw in a .359 sizer into the press and push a .357 bullet through it, the bullet would literally glide through with no contact or resistance whatsoever.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2011, 07:55:44 AM »

I think you would have to blank off the exit of the bullet size die so that the undersize bullet has no where to go when the force of the press is applied by the top punch. I don't size bullets so I am guessing about gcrank's method.

BB

Spanky · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2011, 08:00:50 AM »

Quote from: Gohon on August 12, 2011, 07:37:45 AM

Guess I'm just slow because I'm still not getting it. I have a RCBS single press and I'm pretty sure if I screw in a .359 sizer into the press and push a .357 bullet through it, the bullet would literally glide through with no contact or resistance whatsoever.

That's what I thought too. Am I missing something?

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2011, 08:47:40 AM »

So...who made your sizing die and what size is it?
Sounds like a LEE that fits onto a std reloading press, rather than a Lyman that has its own Lubrisizer it fits into.
The Lyman has a top punch to push the bullet down into the die and ejection punch to kick it back up. If you use the bump process with anything harder than soft lead bullets it overstresses the linkage.
On the LEE type (which I really like, BTW) you dont have anything to stop and compress the bullet on the top side. Top stops have been made by several guys and include an ejection punch to kick the bullet back down (Lots of this kind of stuff is done in 'The Cast Bullet Assoc.').
You can use either one in a vise or arbor press with a slip in top plug; press the bullet in, thus compressing and expanding (bumping) to the die ID, then remove from the press and punch it out of the die with a drift.

rockrat · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2011, 04:43:32 AM »

Alot of work, but you might be able to run some of your slugs between two new clean fine bastard files and kind of "knurl" the bullets, then tumble in some diluted Lee liquid alox lube and let dry, then load them. It will increase the diameter of the bullet and give a good surface for the LLA to adhere

geezerbiker · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2011, 10:59:57 AM »

Quote from: rockrat on August 13, 2011, 04:43:32 AM

Alot of work, but you might be able to run some of your slugs between two new clean fine bastard files and kind of "knurl" the bullets, then tumble in some diluted Lee liquid alox lube and let dry, then load them. It will increase the diameter of the bullet and give a good surface for the LLA to adhere

That's a cool idea. I can't wait to try it with my .44 mag...

Tony

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2011, 01:43:11 PM »

IMHO, I wouldnt use fine files, you need the pressure points of a coarser grade of tooth the get a rise of the surrounding material to make a larger dia. I used to knurl piston skirts on a lathe occasionally to get rid of skirt slap.......now that takes me back! As to how it works in this application, who knows. I would rather use the press and right size die to bump it and know just what I have. It may sound harder than it really is..........

bikerbeans · « **Reply #17 on:** August 14, 2011, 05:39:16 AM »

I used a couple of files to knurl some .452 cast so I could load it in a 45 Cal MZ (converted 45/70). It is a bit of an art and I wasn't able to get consist diameters as some would load easily, some loaded tough and some wouldn't even start down the muzzle. Of course I fit the definition of a "hammer mechanic" so someone with more patience and skill could probably get a much more consist diameter.

One other solution might be to try and trade your bullets for bullets that you know will work in one of your guns.

BB

Junior1942 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 14, 2011, 06:29:57 AM »

Those hammer-hard Meister bullets and Microgroove rifling might not be a good match. First thing I'd try is an extra coat of LLA plus another 200 fps or so.

Urny · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:48:13 AM »

I like Junior's idea. Overly hard bullets, undersized or not, are more often than not hard to make work well with shallow groove barrels. Higher pressure is frequently a passable cure for the problem. Another cure is to get yourself a pot, ladle, mould and sizer and use those bullets as raw material, mixed with pure lead or wheelweights and make some better bullets. However, that's a slippery slope to get started on.