Author Topic: Reloading the 30-30 for NEF/H&R Rifles (Read 2101 times)

Blackhawker · « **on:** August 12, 2011, 12:28:53 AM »

I realize this is a reloading question and there is a reloading thread but this is a question specific to NEF/H&R's so I figure it's appropriate to post here.

To you NEF/H&R 30-30 reloaders: When you resize your 30-30 cartridges, do you neck size only in order to headspace on the shoulder as one would do for a Thompson Contender or do you full length resize to headspace on the rim as one would do for a levergun?
Has anyone discovered any differences (accuracy or other effects) doing it one way or the other?

thejanitor · « **Reply #1 on:** August 12, 2011, 02:40:32 AM »

I full length re-size for mine. I have never tried to neck size only, but since what I am doing drives tacks, I figure I won't mess with it.
thejanitor

BluDino · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2011, 03:04:44 AM »

Odd that you should ask that question right now, I just got a neck resizing die from Midway for mine. I have not tried it yet (it came in yesterday) but I am getting 1 inch groups at 100 yds with Sierra 125 SPs and a bit larger with 165 Hornady SP flat base bullets (3040). The reloading manuals all assert that you should full length resize for lever guns, as I do for my Marlin, but for an NEF/H&R break open single shot or a bolt action type rifle neck sizing is a good option and might help.
I have tried neck resizing in my model 700 30 06 and it made a very big difference for the better so I have hopes that my H&R will improve also. I'll try to get back to this thread when I know more. I'm also interested in the opinions of the forum on this issue.

av-doctor · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2011, 04:45:20 AM »

General rule of thumb, full length resize for pumps,autos,levers and singles. neck size only for bolts and then only if fired in that chamber.
That being said why would you want to headspace a rimmed cartridge on the shoulder? i see no benefit! if anything it should cause more problems especially in a handi which are known for generous chambers!
The 30-30 handi is one of the most accurate chambering they make without doing anything fancy.

knight0334 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2011, 07:22:21 AM »

I full-length for my 30-30 because I use the same dies to load for other 30-30 rifles.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2011, 10:13:05 AM »

Here's an example of what is likely caused by no support at the shoulder on factory 30-30 ammo fired in my 30-30AI Handi, 3 of 5 I fired split at the neck. Headspacing on the shoulder instead of the rim will increase case life for one thing, that's one reason why headspacing on the shoulder instead of the belt on belted magnums is a good idea. When using a full length die on the 30-30, you can neck size if you don't set the die so it's against the shell holder at the top of the stroke, you can adjust it so the round will just chamber flush with the barrel face with the rim not going all the way to the bottom of the rim cut which are usually on the generous side on H&Rs, at least all three of those I've owned were.

Tim

http://www.303british.com/id29.html

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2011, 11:24:25 PM »

I always full length resize also. Long case life is not realy an issue with me .The brass is so common ,and a lot of non reloaders give me their once fired brass.

44 Man · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2011, 04:59:20 AM »

Full length resize for me also! My old Topper is a huntin' gun and I want those rounds to drop right in. For the same reason I have left this one as an 'ejector' barrel. I do admit that my resizing die does not bottom hard against the shell holder, it's more like a real light kiss, but it's enough that they drop right into the chamber. A max book load of H4895 under the Sierra 125 grainers makes a wonderful shooting combination in my Topper. 44 Man

av-doctor · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2011, 05:23:26 AM »

i was not aware case life was an issue with lower pressure rounds. Or has it more to do with overworking the brass.To me it would seem that using the rim would be more consistent. isn't that why we reload hunting rounds? consistent,repeatable,etc.

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2011, 05:57:25 AM »

I'm loading for five .30-30's, two 94's, two 336's, and an old Stevens single shot. I neck size, even on the first firing on new brass, and segregate the ammunition for each rifle, and have noticed better accuracy and case life by using the shoulder instead of the rim for headspace control after fireforming, and absolutely no issues with feed/function. I also have noticed that occasionally annealing the neck/shoulder will give a better seal, and reduces the work hardening of the brass in that area, giving a bit longer case life, though I don't reach for a .30-30 on a consistent basis these days and can't really say that I've pushed the envelope trying to wear out .30-30 brass.
Good, clean cases, and the same consistent preparation I give to ALL of my rifles, in a good chamber give me my best case life and performance.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** August 13, 2011, 09:32:56 AM »

Properly set up dies for a specific chamber will result in a dual HS. The shoulder will just kiss the shoulder AND the rim. As 44 Man is describing.

AV Doc is correct, and I agree, FL or as I have described doing, is best for the SS rifles we shoot. I also agree, there is little problems with case life in a 40K cartridge like the 30-30.

Tim's cases split because its a modified 30-30 AI chamber, the shoulders on factory 30-30 Win are unsupported. Now brass is easily reformed and many times will simply be blown into the new chamber with out issue. Sometimes it splits as he has shown. Now if you have a problem chamber that is cut too deeply. Tim's explanation of overcoming it by moving the shoulder is a "fix" for that.

CW

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #11 on:** August 13, 2011, 11:41:21 AM »

Not all brass, nor chambers seem to be real uniform for some reason, and you'd think that after what, 100+ years, that wouldn't be the case...Even on the very few new .30-30's I've owned, some will stretch cases and let primers walk, and others give nice, uniform expansion with no problems.
In the end, I guess it's a case of "whatever blows yer skirt up", I just have a lot of time on my hands, and occasionally run out of porn and cheeso's, so I put more into my loads than I need to.........
Actually, every year Wally World and all the shops around here run specials on .243, .308, .270, 7mm Mag, 30-06 and .30-30 before hunting season at prices that really leave me scratching my head wonderin' why I go to the trouble to load for those rounds!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 13, 2011, 11:49:07 AM »

Quote from: Darreld Walton on August 13, 2011, 11:41:21 AM

Actually, every year Wally World and all the shops around here run specials on .243, .308, .270, 7mm Mag, 30-06 and .30-30 before hunting season at prices that really leave me scratching my head wonderin' why I go to the trouble to load for those rounds!

What fun would that be!!

Tim

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #13 on:** August 13, 2011, 06:04:41 PM »

I neck size mostly. That is because for the past 40+ years I have used mostly the Lyman 310 Tong Tool, which only neck sizes. BUT, I always check each case after resizing to ensure it will drop into the chamber and the action close easily. If it has stretched to the point of not being able to close the action, it is time to full length resize with the Lee hand press.

Look, a bolt action with front locking lugs has a minimum of stretch and neck sizing works well. Most of your lever, pump, semiautomatic and single shot rifles lock up at the rear of the breech bolt or (as in the H&R) at the rear of the barrel. There is enough movement that the case has the opportunity to stretch. This is especially true when getting towards max pressures. Even a rear locking bolt action has some stretch. I found this out with a model 788 Remington which wouldn't close on the third or fourth reloading when the case was neck sized. I have never had that problem with the H&R, Marlin 336 or Winchester 94, where I discard the cases out of general principals after 12 reloadings. Even my .30-06 NEF did not allow enough case stretch to not be able to chamber or close on neck sized reloads.

A caveat - I don't load for maximum velocity, I load for the tightest groups. My pressures are probably not extreme. I use 4064 for everything rifle wise, and that is a very forgiving powder.

-Kees-

carbineman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2011, 07:02:13 PM »

I FL size all my 30-30, and many of them have been shot 5-6 times with some healthy loads of W748, with 130 grain bullets. According to pressure charts printed in my Hodgdon #26 manual, the pressures for these loads are on the low side of CUP anyway. My 30-30 Toppers develop great velocity with the rounds I load, and being the 30-30 is not a screamer anyway, the last thing I think about is case life. (If they look iffy I toss them)Every year I receive around 200 or so once fired cases from my buddy who run a rifle sight in before the November deer season. He has most every caliber of "deer" rifle except for the 30-30, so I end up with the cases which are mainly Remington from the "sale priced" green/yellow box stuff sold here in Cheeseville. I bought the Hornady 130 SSSP in bulk before they discontinued them and it keeps the grandyoungin's in practise ammo.

The new LeverEvolution propellant has provided me with the book stated velocity with 170 grain Sierra bullets, and that is my new hunting load for my Toppers. I use WW cases, WW std primers, and a full book charge of LE for over 2300 fps average velocity out of 20" and 22" barrels.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2011, 09:41:57 AM »

For my Handi (my only 30-30) I FL size, but only adjust the die down far enough to bump the shoulder back slightly and partially size the neck to reduce working the brass.
I ground away the expander ball on the decapping stem and use the Lyman M die to expand the neck or expand and flare for cast bullets to minimize case stretching.
I crimp (lightly) in a separate step with the Lee factory crimper.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #16 on:** August 14, 2011, 07:55:27 PM »

Hey guys, thanks for all of the replies. It seems this was a "good" question and appears to have generated quite a few people's input and thought.

Here is a little history which should offer up some reason for my original question/post on the thread:

I bought my first 30-30 back in 1994. It was/is a centenial model Winchester 94. Not the super fancy one but just a standard 94 with the stamp "1894-1994" on the reciever. I think I fired about 100 factory loads from it when I first bought it and since then, the rest of the four or five thousand (if not more) have been hand loads. Of those rounds loaded, I NEVER saw one case split or wear out from normal firing. I'd estimate that I probably loaded those cartriges a total of seven times each and they still have life to go. From the time I started loading these rounds and all the way up until a few years ago, I never thought twice about full length sizing or neck sizing. However, about ten years ago, I got into Thompson Contenders. I bought a T/C pistol in 30-30 first and then a carbine barrel about five years agao. I acquired more brass (once fired and new) and began loading for both barrels and again, never considered FL sizing or neck sizing. Low and behold, I started seeing cases split and completely come apart in the chamber of my T/C carbine at the web of the cartridge, yet this has never happened in my T/C pistol. In fact, this was and still sometimes is a somewhat common occurance in my T/C carbine. I never could figure out why I don't have the problem in the pistol but have it happen in the carbine. My guess is that the pistol chamber is tolerant enough to handle the FL sized rounds and the carbine chamber is slightly different from the pistol and requires the neck sizing. At the time I first observed this, I was advised to only neck size for the Contender and continue FL sizing for the levergun.

So, why my question about the H&R? Well, since I've only fired about 100 rounds from my H&R barrel, I haven't seen any trends or broken cartridges yet. However, I'm sure the chamber dimensions are ever so slightly different from my Thompson Conteder chambers and therefore, if I am to neck size for the H&R chamber, I would like to segragate my brass in order to know which is for which chamber. If I neck size the H&R, I'll probably buy some new brass of a different manufacturer and have three different types of brass for three different chambers.
With that, I thought I'd see how people here tend to load for their 30-30 H&R's.

Again, thanks for all of the replies and useful info!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2011, 08:45:29 AM »

Blackhawker, My guess on the case problems youve had is a result of that chamber is 'generously cut' and your dieset is reducing the case dimensions enough that the repeated brass working is just wearing it out (just like bending a piece of metal back & forth).
FWIW, I usually neck size, if at all, but I try to use a cast bullet that fits the fully fire-formed case mouth. I want my brass to completely fill the chamber and hold the bullet concentric with the bore for a launch platform without slop. This, of course, for mostly target shooting. For hunting loads I want them to fit and eject freely, and have no qualms about FL sized cases and jacketed bullets at all (I just cant afford to shoot them much).
I have found that if my loads are 'hot' enough that after 3, 4, or 5 reloads w/o resizing that they become 'sticky' to extract or rechamber, and seem to need resizing, that I should back the load off a tad more. That done I get gobs of reloads, long case life and they all have shot pretty decent for me.
So.....give it a go, and see what your results, in that chamber, are. If you can live with the futzing about to play with your loads this way it can be fun and interesting. If you just dont want to mess about this way, FL resize and go shoot. Its your gun and your fun, do what works for you.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2011, 05:16:13 AM »

G-crank1,
I'm definitely going to look into only neck sizing my brass for my T/C. I just got back from a trip to Wyoming and shot a few 30-30's from my Thompson Contender carbine and had to throw away about six cartridges out of 60 due to split cases or completely severed cases at the web area. I think that my T/C chamber has A LOT of room near the web area and that's where a lot of the expansion and resizing is occurring over and over when I re-load them...hence, over-working the brass until it breaks. I think I'll segregate any brass used in the T/C from now on, neck size them only and see what happens. I'll probably mix the brass for the H&R and Winchester for the time being.

Thanks for your input....always appreciated!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2011, 06:25:47 AM »

Lee makes a Collet (neck size only) Die for the 30-30, as a set, or you can buy that die separately. I really like them! It would solve a lot of these problems and make 'tuning' brass to a given chamber/throat and bullet dia. a snap. No case lube required!

Blackhawker · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2011, 06:51:05 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on August 29, 2011, 06:25:47 AM

Lee makes a Collet (neck size only) Die for the 30-30, as a set, or you can buy that die separately. I really like them! It would solve a lot of these problems and make 'tuning' brass to a given chamber/throat and bullet dia. a snap. No case lube required!

I was thinking of buying that die as a matter of fact. Thanks!