Author Topic: 45 - 410 Survival Gun (Read 2731 times)

vacek · « **on:** September 04, 2011, 06:20:23 PM »

I was at a gun show today and sold and old Makarov for $235 and picked up a new in the box H&R 45/410 Survival Model SB1 for a total cost with tax of $229. This is easily the ugliest gun I have ever owned but should prove useful as a truck gun. So I have a few questions.

1. This has a screw out choke for firing 45 Colt. With the choke out, can one still fire 410 with any decent <20 yard pattern?
2. I am planning on using my own reloads and cast bullets anywhere from 220 - 320 grains. Will that be a problem if my loads are within less than the max on Ruger Blackhawk 445 loads?
3. Since we are talking about a longer barrel than my 45 BlackHawk, should I use a slower powder? Right now my loads are W231 and Red Dot, but I have a lot of powders in my inventory.
4. I have a spare 20 guage barrel that fits really nice. Any problem using that with this system?
5. The gun only comes with a front bead. Should one put a nice large aperature on the barrel?
6. Anyone else own one of these and what is your experience?

Thank you ahead of time for any feedback.

Vacek

bikerbeans · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2011, 04:22:06 AM »

Hi,

The choke tube is for shooting 410 shot shells, if you shoot 45 Colt loads then you need to remove the choke tube.
Regarding pressures the 410/45 barrel and frame are of shotgun materials so one needs to consider that when working up a load. If your 20 ga barrel fits correctly (see the FAQs sticky at beginning of this forum) then it should work fine with your receiver. IIRC, some folks have put a scope rail on this barrel and I believe they have been silver solder but not drill/tapped; the FAQs may help you with this question.

As far as powder burn rates I don't have experience with this particular gun. I do have a 45 ACP handi with an 18.5" barrel and book loads (with pistol powder) for a 5" 1911 are 200 to 250 FPS faster out of my 45ACP Handi rifle.

Good luck with your new truck gun.

BB

vacek · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2011, 07:10:25 AM »

Thank you for the info.

I am going to post same questions in the handloading forum here and on THR.

gendoc · « **Reply #3 on:** September 05, 2011, 08:56:12 AM »

drill and tapping for a scope rail is easily done on this barrel... plenty of meat to work wif...
i did all 3 of ours

search here for 45/410 threads..... i know i've posted many

bikerbeans · « **Reply #4 on:** September 05, 2011, 01:09:39 PM »

Doc,

Thanks for correcting me, it's Labor Day so my brain has the day off.

It's the 12 ga barrels that you shouldn't D/T because there ain't enough metal.

BB

gendoc · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2011, 01:31:42 PM »

your ok bb, you reminded me of a more serious matter couple threads ago !!!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2011, 04:12:05 PM »

Guys, Im SOOO glad it isnt just me........

gschwertley · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2011, 07:53:27 PM »

I've got one of these barrels fitted to the plain wooden-stocked outfit but of course it works the same. One of your original questions was about shooting shot without the choke in place. I can't say for shot pattern effectiveness. However, it get ideas that exposed threads might get fouled with shavings from passing lead shot. For that reason, I haven't tried it. I dislike cleaning firearms enough that I don't want to do any more cleaning than necessary.

The sight arrangement is pretty poor for shooting .45 Colt in my own humble and limited experience. My idea wasn't to use it for serious work at any distance, just to have a heftier, solid projectile at fairly short range. For me, it's mostly a just-in-case gun. I've never fired it on the trap range at the gun club where I'm a member; for that, I use a 1966 H&R Topper.

For some time, I've liked the handy combination of .410/.45 Colt. About 25 years ago, I found this idea attractive enough that I bought such a combination barrel for a TC Contender. It's long gone, but I like the longer barrel of the NEF that I've got rather than a pistol barrel.

There are a number of .410 specialty loads out there now that for all practical purposes make the .45 Colt round in the .410 barrel redundant as a utility round. The major ammo manufacturers now make some alternatives to a metallic cartridge in the shotgun barrel that are better than the old lead slugs.

I would also advise against hot-rod loads in the combination barrels. After all, you're firing them on a cast iron frame.

DukeInMaine · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2011, 06:59:13 AM »

Here's my take on the 410/45LC combo, and I have seen it posted several times in the past also:

The 3" of gap between the face of the frame, and the beginning of the rifling (I believe that the rifling is a bit further away than that, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it's 3") is a long way for a 45 LC, which has an overall length of 1.6", to go. That's 1.4 inches of flying through the air before a bullet hits rifling.

When I was looking for a barrel to handle 45 LC, I thought, "Hey! It might be neat to have a barrel that also does 410 shot shells"

But, as I thought through the physics of the 45 LC in that same chamber, I thought better of it. I mean, I suppose it doesn't matter in the chamber of a Taurus JUDGE revolver. That would only be used close up anyways.

I opted for the 45 LC only barrel. Anyways, that's my take on it.

gendoc · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:02:51 PM »

things that are required when purchasing one of these fine barrels....

you must have the following....

1-vast imagination...
2-losts of time to devote.
3-handloading components and references
4-a real good knowledge of what tha barrel can handle.
5-not to be too concerned about tha receiver pressure, because barrel can't even handle
what a sb1 receiver can... so you must be aware of that....
6-know your safety limits
7-did i mention. lots of time !!!
8-and finally... a want to make this barrel shoot accurate.

i have done it successfully 3 times. they will never shoot my way straight out of the box !!

pass on this barrel if you don't have all of the above. many folks here bad mouth this barrel and i'm all gud with that cus i made somethin they ain't got ......

and it has take'n kiyots to cottonmouths, rattlers to rabbits, and buck deer to boar hawgs.

i like it, and thats all that matters to me

bikerbeans · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2011, 03:40:38 PM »

Doc,

Stop it! You are going to make me get a 45/410 just so I make it shoot straight! I have been waitin' on Spanky's 45/410 range report just to give me the nudge to get one.

BB

Spanky · « **Reply #11 on:** September 06, 2011, 04:01:38 PM »

Funny you should mention that BB.

I finally got around to picking it up from the shop and shooting it a few times. It was raining on and off today so no official report but I did shoot up half a box of ammo.
I set up some cardboard targets at 25 yds. and shot off the picnic table. The ammo was 200gr. CCI hollow points (dirt cheap). I was pretty surprised at how good it shot. I won't say it shot a 1" group (it didn't) but it did shoot a 2" group. I think the biggest factor is the single bead sight. I'm planning on using the same setup as I have on my Maxi... a WGRS rear sight and a Remington ramp front sight with brass bead. A good set of sights or a scope would do wonders for this barrel.
To be honest I am pleasantly surprised at how it shot and can't wait to get some real sights on it and do a real range report.
Mine is the nickel plated model and I really like the looks of it. Of course my nephew confiscated the survivor stock set so I had to put a palletwood set on it. I actually think it looks better with the wood stocks though so it's all good.

Real range report to follow... soon.

Spanky

vacek · « **Reply #12 on:** September 06, 2011, 04:47:30 PM »

Very good posts and I appreciate it. Since I am initially looking for short range hunting accuracy and not MOA I think I am going to like this gun. My biggest concern is choice of powder since I am assuming the Red Dot and W231 which I use for my BlackHawk might be a little fast for the longer tube. That is an assumption, but the consideration today is Unique and/or 2400 again with a view of the average bullet probably a 250-270 Keith at 900-1000 fps. That seems like more than adequate for short range (<50 yards).

jparedes · « **Reply #13 on:** September 07, 2011, 08:33:11 AM »

Gendoc,

There is this 45/410 at the pawn shop nearby that has been calling my name, but I have abstained of buying it because of all the bad reports on accuracy........well, until now.

Please tell us what precision were you able to achieve with the .45 and how.

And about the .410, how is big is the pattern at xx yards?

Thanks.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #14 on:** September 07, 2011, 09:12:47 AM »

Quote from: jparedes on September 07, 2011, 08:33:11 AM

Gendoc,

There is this 45/410 at the pawn shop nearby that has been calling my name, but I have abstained of buying it because of all the bad reports on accuracy........well, until now.

Please tell us what precision were you able to achieve with the .45 and how.

And about the .410, how is big is the pattern at xx yards?

Thanks.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,194300.msg1098984543.html#msg1098984543

I don't think Doc shoots shotshells in his 45/410.

BB

MSP Ret · « **Reply #15 on:** September 07, 2011, 10:46:02 AM »

For you guys that are using a bead sight on the .45 LC barrel or .410 slugs in the same barrel (this also go's for smoothbore shotgun slug shooters), "AIM SMALL - MISS SMALL".
For many years we had only bead sights on our issue 870's for work and it was easy to go 100% with slugs on the B5 silouette target (all in the K-5 zone) with foster style slugs, smoothbore 18" barrels and just a bead sight, out to 75 yards. Our 870's were later updated to rifle sights but the scores did not go up much, however the rifle sights made it a little harder to hit on moving and aerial targets with shot shells and buckshot....<><....

tacklebury · « **Reply #16 on:** September 07, 2011, 12:56:54 PM »

Yep, consistency in hold and eye position is just a little more critical. You can improvise a peep in the little v-notch by epoxying on a small piece of brass 1/8" tubing. Doesn't really interfere with shot shooting either, just acts like a ghost ring.

gendoc · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:16:54 PM »

Quote from: jparedes on September 07, 2011, 08:33:11 AM

Gendoc,

There is this 45/410 at the pawn shop nearby that has been calling my name, but I have abstained of buying it because of all the bad reports on accuracy........well, until now.

Please tell us what precision were you able to achieve with the .45 and how.

And about the .410, how is big is the pattern at xx yards?

Thanks.

many times i have posted pictures of my creations accuracy in tha past 2 years.
sometimes i do shoot shotshells, but itsa might bit wide pattern

will killa cottonmouth or rattler from tha rear axle deck of my tractor or combine while on coonass auto-pilot

and a few bobwhite when we hava notion to stik-seer sum...

i cannot reveal my secrets to the public... because of items # 4,5,6 that i previously posted.
i'm kinda limited for exactly every move i have taken, even with some i have told...
they think they have all tha info-------WRONG !!!!
itsa called CYA, when your in my line of business, you havta be on top
of that man..... yeah

jparedes · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:41:35 PM »

BikerBeans and GenDoc,
Thank you both for your comments and references.
I'll leave the 45/410 path. I'm happy with my 45-70 but.......in relation to being able to shoot shot, I will be trying plastic pills with it. Paper Patched Plastic Pills.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #19 on:** September 07, 2011, 03:46:53 PM »

#4, a real good knowledge of what the barrel will handle. Doc, you have first hand knowledge of what the 45/410 barrel will not handle?

BB

gendoc · « **Reply #20 on:** September 08, 2011, 12:56:56 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on September 07, 2011, 03:46:53 PM

#4, a real good knowledge of what the barrel will handle. Doc, you have first hand knowledge of what the 45/410 barrel will not handle?

BB

bb,
no, i never have had an overspike in pressures

i'm kinda more careful than that